How do ML hitters adjust for off speed pitches.

[Teacherman]

From the batter's perspective, is this 'unloading' of the rear hip to the ball something the batter can feel or be taught.

Most definitely.

Watch Chippers rear hip go up and forward. He is "doing" that, IMO





However, I don't believe at this point Chipper has to think about it anymore. It is just part of his swing now. Automatic.

The feeling of riding the back leg is one thing. I've attempted to do that for a long time. The difference comes from riding the back leg and maintaining the one point stance. Maintaining the weight back longer than I ever did before. Maintaining weight back until "go" allows that joint much more freedom.

As soon as the front foot is weighted you lose freedom.

[tom.guerry]

As you ride the leg, the running start develops which means you are coiling with good upper body/lower body synch which means the muscles are lengthening which means the body has to be changing position to keep the muscles on stretch. So you need to sit as the momentum goes forward so you can "shift" when you need to without interrupting the coil prematurely.

[Teacherman]

Notice the difference in Ortiz's rear knee in each pitch location.

Notice how his rear foot reacts in each pitch location.

[tom.guerry]

definitely holy grail territory, thanks Richard.

Finally getting a chance to gothrough this thread. Great thread. Some random reactions:

There are different approaches to adjust on fly, all using the mlb/2 engine patern.

Epstein: look in OR out, adjust up/down on fly.

Epstein, mediocre pitcher, look FAST or SLOW.

Lau Jr ( longer swing radius/more off plate) look fast or slow or look up or down, then adjust in/out on fly.

Depending on what you are anticipating, you might start your neg move earlier or later, or you might have your bat more or less vertical or you might conentrate on being more upright/leveling swing more.

The window for on the fly is restricted between either:

1 - momentum gets too far forward/ center of rotation needs to be beyond front foot base so swing does not work/lunge, or

2- you are staying/keeping the momentum back, but at some point you can no longer keep the coil going and it is interrupted/no longer stretching. It has to be already/still stretching when you GO/stretch(more) and fire.


One point stance idea is indeed a breakthrough eel concept.

This is why stride is good. Very hard to sequence and synch with no stride training unless you really know thw whole sequence and how all the parts can fit.

Richard said:

"The barrel going rearward, up until "go", is "early batspeed"....therefore part of the swing....yet it is part of loading also as it is opposite the hip opening.....it is half of the stretch creation as it plays opposite the lower body running start.

"That is the mechancial advantage of the high level pattern. They get deep into the swing without swinging. They are still loaded. They can "go" or "no go"....and the swing actually becomes very very quick.....as I said earlier...Bonds appears to hit 3 frames at time."


Comment: adjustment can start with plan/what is anticipated and be successfuly made until "GO", and even after this the swing can be checked or if further adjusted and not checked ends up being an emergency swing tha may or may not work. The decision that does this adjusting triggers a series of body motons which takes some amount of time to happen/execute.


Regarding swing description terminology, I think of neg move and positive move as an early part of the standard sequence

1-inward turn/neg move/hand hitch/start hip cock/lead knee turnin/stride foot step in/lift

2-pos move/hand cock/stride leg forward/ max bat tip

3- rotate into toe touch, wind rubberband,running start, untip/float barell, stride leg turns front foot open some as handle is torqued and back elbow plateaus and starts down, front toe may touch/sit/forward momentum adjustable

4-GO, drop and tilt, additional stretch then fire,still some time to check swing, shift to front foot. all those simultaneous things richard mentions

5- bathead fires to contact


I also like Richard's distinction between momentum and shift.


"CUSP" scientifically/across skills is MOST like elastic/muscle stretch force that moves the kinetic chain/link, BUT as Richard says, the KEY MOVER of the GO is hands on handle firing the bathead out which produces the controlled timing and direction of the end of stretch then immediate fire.

Bathead going out at same time that body is coiled makes available energy efficiently flow into fring the bathead, not dragging the barrell or overturning the body.

How much the hips turn will depend on where and whe the hands want to be positioned to geat the swing to match the pitch. So for longer swing radius there will be higher resistance to turning and there will e more coil with hips decelerating sooner,etc.

Second engine sets limits for body to work within.

[Teacherman]

These two swings are almost identical up until footplant.

What adjustments can be made from there?

What "launches" the swing?

How are the adjustments made?

[Teacherman]

Here are their "go" moves.



Looks like lateral tilt to me.

[Teacherman]

Here are the full swings synced to footplant.



I have to conclude the upper body is in charge.

The smooth "hand lift" and barrel swivel rearward in the left clip is uninterrupted and he transfers nicely into the overlap.

It isn't as smooth in the right clip. IMO, he slowed the lower body with his hands/upper body.

The top down control of a lower body program.

[Stealth]

Teach - thanks for all the time you spend on this stuff. It really makes me (and others) look closer at the MLB swing.

[Teacherman]

ShawnB has some interesting things to say about Abreau on BBF. Some "degree of lag" garbage.

I believe Abreau is "out of pattern" here. And, of course, ShawnB is off point on his "treatment".

Abreau lands closed. Poor rotation into footplant. Weights his front leg while it's closed. Has no path for the bat....struggles to get it through. He doesn't "hold" the shoulders well.

Fortunately he got a pitch he could handle from his mechanics.

Notice how late his bat blurs.

He never cleared the front hip....therefore he can't swivel to the ball (no path) and he can't swivel his rear hip ball and socket (front leg is in the way)....rear hip doesn't get 'through'.

Compare his rear hip to



Anyone have any clips of his HR Derby barrage?

[Teacherman]

This front view is telling, IMO. His lower body running start is a walking start....or nonexistent. He doesn't rotate into footplant very well....he steps in the bucket to get open. (that isn't all bad...so does Chipper and Bonds...but that's all he does to get open) Then he weights the front leg and can only spin.

Chippers rear hip and leg EXPLODE. Abreau's don't.

Looks to me like a two point stance with limited degrees of freedom.

Compare.

[swingbuilder]

rotate into toe touch,

Be very very careful here. I don't care for this cue. To me this is bleeding off the power source.

[Teacherman]

Who said that?

Explain your fear.

[tom.guerry]

builder -

Cue-wise I prefer "windrubberband", but some others describe what they see on video as "rotation into toe touch" which may or may not be right at a more detailed level.

[swingbuilder]

Tom said it...more than likely he was quoting (unofficial...LOL) someone else that said it.

My fear....It bleeds the power in the hips. Rotation into solid foot plant is a big difference from rotate into toe touch. I can't see it being right at any level. But, I should also say I don't teach stride to your toe.

I like wind the rubber band. Used it for a long long time. As a matter of fact I have a thin thin bungee that is like a super rubber band. I use it in swinging a bat.