How do ML hitters adjust for off speed pitches.

[swingbuilder]

the rubber band winding saets up a window of time and place where you can then control the stretch and fire to match the pitch.

For off speed, you canb keep the rubber band winding longer up to a point associated with back leg flex. The lower body is all happening in the back hip joint

I wanted to go down this road for several reasons. But I will start with some comments Tom stated in another thread.

I also wanted to add a comment from a guy who was with the Rangers and then the Pirates.

He thinks he is right about 50% of the time of what a pitcher is going to throw him. He studies the pitchers and has a good understanding of what he thinks he will get. So he starts his negative move/ load later when he thinks he is getting a curveball.

What would you guys think based on Toms comments above and the statement by the current player.

[Teacherman]

I don't fully understand the question.

I do believe the 'stretch and fire' mechanics create a launch window that can be adjusted on the fly.

I was never comfortable with guessing. And, I'm surprised the mlb player can be right 50% of the time. However, people are creatures of habit and with video and scouting....I guess it's possible.

[hitdapill]

I found Steve Springers audio CD an invaluable tool in understanding how ML's think. My son incorporated a lot of what Spring says and experienced a lot more success. It is educated guessing derived from pitcher habits and patterns. Springer theorizes that ML hitters go up to bat looking for what they are gonna get...not for what they want. Spring is a big advocate of sitting on something til 2 strikes. At the level my son is at, this is great advice.

[jerry weinstein]

I don't fully understand the question.

I do believe the 'stretch and fire' mechanics create a launch window that can be adjusted on the fly.

I was never comfortable with guessing. And, I'm surprised the mlb player can be right 50% of the time. However, people are creatures of habit and with video and scouting....I guess it's possible.

What is your definition of adjust on the fly?

There is a % of ML hitters that react. They basically see it & hit it. Their hard hit average is usually higher for one speed or type of pitch over another. There is a smaller % of hitters who sit on a particular speed/location combination based on situations,pitcher tendencies & hitter strengths & weaknesses. These hitters exhibit similar hard hit averages for various speed pitches. Then there are other hitters who combine the two approaches.

The key concept is that velocity is a combination of actual velocity + location. Perry Husband(www.hittingisaguess.com) has had access to the Inside Edge data based & has studied this phenomenon extensively. A 90mph fastball can act like an 80-100 mph. fastball depending upon it's location.Based on Perry's studies, it's very hard to hit a ball solidly(80-100% on time contact) if you are geared up for or see what you think is one speed & you are off by 7+ mph. He has the stats to back it up.

IMO, with less than 2 strikes, in order for the majority of hitters to be successful, they should "sit on pitches" with a "gap to gap" approach.Certainly you can adjust on the go based on changes in release trajectory or delivery or arm speed tells. But once you start to launch your swing(based on what you see in the 1st 26'of ball flight) there is a minimal chance to make swing adjustments.

Are there exceptions? Sure we have all seen the Derek Jeter's "emergency swing" on balls in that he has initially seen away but has late run or Ramirez pulling off because he misread the slider & flipped the ball the other way.This is a low % approach. Good hitters have that swing in there bag but it is not the preferred approach.

JW

[swingbuilder]

Very nice comments Jerry.

My starting this thread is two fold.

1) Mechanically how does everyone feel that a major league hitter adjust to hit a breaking ball if he is geared to hit the fastball. How does the hitter adjust to hit the hanging breaking ball when he has prepared for the fastball.

2) Whats everyone's feelings as to the start the load/ unload later if they feel they may see a breaking ball.

I do believe the 'stretch and fire' mechanics create a launch window that can be adjusted on the fly.

I'd also like to get in depth with this comment above that Rich made. Rich can you dive into this?

[Teacherman]

On the fly...

[Teacherman]

You guys are confusing.

You're asking a question about how to adjust and then you give examples of guessing and sitting on pitches.

I don't call that adjustment.

I call that hitting.

The high level swing allows a high level of "on the fly" adjustment.

I believe the clip I posted of Pujols and this clip of Bonds shows adjustment "on the fly".



Notice the "slowing" of Bonds momentum after his foot got down and just before contact.

A key is an understanding of the two engines, how they work to create the cusp, how sudden the launch really is, and the importance of the one point swing stance.

Engine one is the hips opening. Engine two is the hands/forearms turning the barrel rearward. They work in opposite directions, they create resistance, they create a "stretched/twisted rubber band" type of energy, they create elasticity, which can be stored and released versus "created at the moment" (brute strength). That stretch and momentum is the whole purpose of the upper and lower body running starts. The upper body/shoulders "hold" the release of this stored energy until the proper moment.....when they laterally tilt at "go".

Now to the one point stance. The ball and socket joint of the rear hip is the "one point stance". The "ride the back leg" position. And, what I mean by that is the swing is launched from that position. Your lead foot is not weighted. It may have landed....most of the time it has. But it has no weight on it until after "go".

The "freedom" that the rear hip ball and socket joint has is of utmost importance in the high level swing. When it is unecumbered by the lead leg, the lead foot, and whether or not it has gotten down or not, AND when it has created a load in the rear hip and the load is maintained during momentum, the rear hip ball and socket joint is now "FREE". It now becomes the most important part of the launch. (that assumes your hands know how to work)

With the hand set such that the hitter can swivel to any pitch location, the in/out up/down adjustment is solved. All that is left is the long/short.

With the upper body and lower body running starts already in action and creating stretch, and which is being held back by the shoulders.....creating the immediate launch and spend mechanics...that are now primed and ready.....and you're reading the pitch deciding what to do, the "readiness" and freedom of the rear hip ball and socket joint and the "readiness" of the shoulders lateral tilt provides the hitter the ability to launch within a window of time.

He can launch at the beginning of the window for the fastball. Sufficient stretch has been achieved....sufficient load has be reached in the rear hip ball and socket joint. Have you ever noticed how often great hitters get the lead foot down "just in time"...."all the time". Well, it is my opinion that the "go" move puts the foot down. By foot down I'm refering to weighting it. Once that foot receives weight, if you haven't "gone" you are toast. You are at the mercy of the pitch. Your preswing knowledge better be outstanding. When that lead foot gets weighted before the "go" move, you now have to deal with the lead leg....which "odds are" has to be in the way at that point. You can not weight the foot and then react to the pitch AND have a path for the barrel.

OR

He can launch at the late end of the window. (or any point in between) Nothing changes....except the lead foot hits the ground at about the same time as it would for the fastball...so it's there much longer before "go"....and the hitter continues to open the hips against the shoulders "hold" which creates more stretch than he would've had before....but the hitter still keeps the lead foot from being weighted until "go" by controlling the launch of the swing with the rear hip ball and socket joint (therefore the "one point stance" both feet are down but only one bears weight) and the lateral tilt of the shoulders.

The rear hip ball and socket joint unload launches the hips at "go". The lateral tilt of the shoulders launch the barrel at "go".....in opposite directions.......THE CUSP.

Which is so sudden that I don't believe the average guy understands.

P.S. I mentioned earlier about Bonds slowing his momentum after the foot landed and before "go". What is he doing? He's maintaining the load in his one point stance. While he would prefer to have both the momentum and the unload of the rear hip...it ain't possible on this pitch. He maintains the important one which requires the slowing of his momentum.....and he hits the ball out of the park.

It is my opinion that the rear hip ball and socket joint...the one point stance is the only way this can be done. That load in that hip makes it possible for the following to happen simultaneously.

1) handle torque
2) forearm rotation
3) shoulder lateral tilt
4) rear hip unload (rotation)
5) rear foot push off the ground (weight shift back to front)

IMO, you can't do these simultaneously with a two point stance....you can't do these if weight gets to the front foot before "go". Therefore a true 'swinging gate', a posted lead leg that rotation occurs around, is not possible in the high level swing. For at least these reasons. The above can not happen simultaneously....therefore no suddenness to the launch.....if the lead leg/foot is weighted before "go" you have no path for the barrel....it is difficult to work the hands properly with weight forward.

[Teacherman]

My "one point stance" was supposed to be revealed in a different thread......but no one was interested.

The above is the new "Holy Grail" like discovery that I mentioned earlier. The details of syncing the upper and lower bodies to get the optimal launch.

Brandon has been hitting the crap out of the ball with the above mechanics. I can not overstate the benefit of the one point stance.....the proper use of and the domination of the rear hip ball and socket joint in the lower body mechanics.

We go as far as to think about sitting on a pedestal with the rear hip....sitting on the rear leg....loading that position.....maintaining that load until "go"....and rotating on/against that pedestal as we push with the rear foot. It feels like you can control the launch with the rear knee. Because as you're lower body running start is under way, the entire hip unit is turning open. But, you still maintain a load in the rear hip joint. So the rear hip joint is moving with the rest yet loaded. The rear knee gets turned and the unload of the rear hip joint "feels like" a combination of knee action and hip unload....the aggressive unload sends the rear hip up and forward.....like this...



We knew about the handle torque. Did well with that. We knew about the lower body running start. Did well with that. But something was still amiss. Inconsistency would show up all too often.

This HORRIBLE workout....that you've seen before....that frustrated the hell out of us....has now been turned into one of our Great Days. Because it made us search deeper and we found a big piece of the puzzle.



The weight has to shift at "go".....not before.

BTW, these lower body mechanics are very similar to throwing. And they explain how I used my body as a catcher and developed an extremely quick release. Much of the action described above I would do before the pitch arrived. I always left my right foot on the ground. And I suffered no loss of velocity. I could load into the hip joint as the pitch was arriving....and still be able to adjust for pitch location...without ever moving the right foot....just as a hitter opens the lower body but maintains the load in the rear hip while doing so. I was already "throwing" before the ball was transfered. And, the stance I would do this from was what they would call the "no runners on" stance.....and I had no loss of power....in fact....just the opposite....I gained power and quickness.

Just as Bonds is already swinging before "go".

It's about the suddenness....not brute strength.

[swingbuilder]

Rich, I had a feeling this was your holy grail. Which was a minor reason I started this thread.

I have taught this for years. Since about 1988. My one mistake was that I had the hitters stop everything to learn the separation and how to tighten the rubber band. I just never took the next step and put it together. I never brought the two ends together so to speak.

I took the hitter to the extreme in a drill with a ball on a Tee. I made the drill reactive based on my verbal call of "fastball" and "curveball". One swing was at the beginning of the window and the other was anytime after the beginning of the window until the end of the window. The window in this situation was the verbal cue of "fastball" and Curveball". A great drill that had great results and probably would of had even better results had I married the two ends.

If you recall. You may or may not, you seem to have a knack for remembering your journey or road traveled, to this point, in your search. That Doug and I talked extensively about how college coaches used a practice of "start-stop-start and how I didn't mind the teaching practice as long as they took it to the next step. Your desrciption is what they are trying to achieve but they do not marry the two ends of the rubberband, so to speak. They do not take it to the last step.

This thread is what hitting and making adjustments is all about. Sure you cheat/ guess in certain hitters counts but the ability to make adjustments while on the fly is the ultimate and is absolutely the "holy grail" to becoming a great hitter.

[jerry weinstein]

Richard,
"On the fly" to me sounded like you were hinting that once the bat started that ML hitters were able to make swing adjustments based on the speed & location of the pitch.The ballistic nature of the swing makes this very difficult.

IMO Pujols is adjusting to the height of the pitch based on release & early ball flight. It's hard for me to quantify the Bonds clip but if he is slowing his momentum(which I will take your word for) IMO again it's in response to something that he identified early in the pitch(1i.e. pitch trajectory, ball velocity out of the pitcher's hand,tempo,etc.)

No doubt that Bonds can do this. He probably has the best visual system in all of baseball according to Dr. Bill Harrison.

I think the key, as you so frequently state, is a hitter's ability to "ride his back leg." IMO it gives the hitter some "float" time to adjust on the fly when they don't get what they are looking for. It also gives them more time to react if that is what they are inclined to do. IMO Guys like Oh used that knee kick to ride & float to help them adjust when necessary.

Whether it is great anticipation or adjustment on the fly, top hitters DO get their foot down "just in time" & are rarely too early or too late.

JW

[Teacherman]

Richard,
"On the fly" to me sounded like you were hinting that once the bat started that ML hitters were able to make swing adjustments based on the speed & location of the pitch

That's exactly what I'm saying.

And it is possible due to the direction they launch the barrel.

Pujols sends the barrel into it's rearward arc......in effect, a start of the swing but with no commitment....to swing....or to any location. That decision comes later.

Then, he can adjust his swivel angle mid arc if need be. Much like adjusting the direction of a ball on a string. If it's already circling, it doesn't take much at all to redirect it without losing the arc or it's speed. If it isn't already circling you have too much to do in not enough time. You have to have an almost perfect decision before you can start. That doesn't fly.

That is exactly what he's doing in this clip. He started the barrel rearward like he does on every swing. Then, mid swing.....mid arc.....he adjusts it.

This is the high adjustability of the high level swing. IF your swing is shoulder rotation generated you can not do this. IF your swing depends on the lead arm being up in the swing plane at launch....meaning posture adjustment is your main adjustor.....you can not do this.

You MUST swing with your Hands and Hips with the launch and spend mechanics to pull this off.

[jerry weinstein]

Respectfully disagree. Hitters swing at what they see. They do not get a second chance if they made a mistake in pitch recognition. IMO changing the swing path midway in the swing arc just does not happen.

JW

P.S.ballistic movement n. A movement such that cannot be controlled once it has been initiated.

[Teacherman]

It's happening right above your post. Pujols is launching that swing as if to hit a pitch down central....maybe up a little.

Suddenly....watch the rear shoulder and hands turn downward.

[swingbuilder]

Jerry, think about what your saying. You know it does on a daily basis. Sometimes it is good and other times the hitter looks bad.

I'll show you Pujols hitting a HR off Brad Lidge in the NLCS. On a slider at 90 MPH that he golfed off the ground all most. There is no way Pujols set out to hit that pitch and where it was thrown when he started his swing.

He saw where the ball was headed by something. Maybe it was spin, maybe it was arm action or maybe it was direction from hand. Maybe Lidge gave it away with his mechanics or maybe he didnt give it away at all.

Hitters dont have time to wait and see then swing. They begin the process before ball release then they adjust on the fly by slowing the process.

[jerry weinstein]

They physically start the swing process before the ball is released?