Feel The Rear Hip Pivot Point

[GroundUp]

This HOF'er "lays the bat off" early.

Do you feel that his bat barrel results in the 'C'?

Do you know of any hitters that "lay the bat off early" that do yield the 'C'?

[GroundUp]

p.s.

Sort of refutes Epstein's theory that swinging with level shoulders, or having a level swing, will result in forward lunging.

[Pronk]

p.s.

Sort of refutes Epstein's theory that swinging with level shoulders, or having a level swing, will result in forward lunging.

Many older players had more of a horizontal swing plane. I noticed you didn't bother to comment on the rear forearm. Just how is Kaline laying the bat off early....

The capital C you see is there just kind of tilted a little.

In any case Point#1 is pointing out something. In the Howard swing you attribute his superior swing to the fact that his barrel is loaded better than Macias. The Point shows you a setup where the barrel is positionally quite similar between Macias and Kaline. Yet Kaline seems to do something a little extra with the rear forearm. I believe the technical term you used was "barrel dumping"/

[pointnumberone]

Please explain this "back leg resisting rotation theory" in more depth.

As I told you before, go take 100 check swings and tell me what muscles of your back leg is sore the next day.

At what point does the back leg stop resisting rotation, or does it continue to block rotation throughout the swing?

It controls internal rotation of the back leg. How much it blocks depends on the pitch location and speed. If you let the back knee turn in too early or too much, it just leads to spinning. You let it turn in too early, and you "lose" the load in the back leg/hip.

If I understand you correctly, the back knee is turning downward and inward, but at the same time the back thigh is resisting this.

The back knee turns inward because of the hip adductors. What is actually happening is called hip adduction not internal rotation. When the knee is more flexed, the adductors cause internal rotation.



The confusion to call it "internal rotation" is because we are looking at it in relation to the camera. If the camera were to follow the rotation of the hips, we will see that the back knee is simply "trying" to "stay under" the hip.

Look at the clip below of Bonds. Watch his back knee fire toward 1st base into contact. And after contact, his back heel turns toward 1st base as a result of "recoil".



Same thing with Wright. Here is into contact.



And after contact.

[pointnumberone]

Do you feel that his bat barrel results in the 'C'?

Do you know of any hitters that "lay the bat off early" that do yield the 'C'?

Kaline exhibits less of a 'C' because is swing plane is more horizontally tilted like an Albert Pujols. Howard's swing plane simply is more vertically tilted.

Kaline is letting the barrel arc rearward early, but it doesn't "hurt" him because he knows how to use his hands and forearms to continue to turn the bat. The "checkpoint" with Kaline is his "lag" position when the bat is level with the ground.

[Teacherman]

Rich..why is Macias laying the bat off so much ealier than that Howard in these clips? In my opinion, if he would keep that barrel vertical longer like howard, he would be less prone to pulling the knob.

I do see the shift, then swing..Howard stays back much better in these two clips.

Are you saying this hitter is dumping the barrel?

A hitter under the direction of the quack....and he's dumping the barrel

You've already mentioned the 'taught'.....as in he's been taught wrong.....issue. He shifts before he swings. When the weight gets to the lead leg before you swing....you can not turn the barrel and that forward weight forces you to pull. When you pull you have no leverage to turn the barrel. It's just like hip slide.....you get barrel slide. An elongated arc when he attempts to throw.

That is why guppy has to say 'similar'. He can't quite get it. His lower body with straight line pushes forces failure.

And....

He dumps his barrel because of his lead arm extension. You can not create a hand pivot point with lead arm extension.

This is exactly what Swingbuilder keeps saying as he trys to distinquish between the good and the bad.

Macias pushes his hands back....loading his lead arm pit area which then unloads by pulling. If he loaded his rear arm/hand/scap....the lead arm may or may not extend....but the unload will be of the reararm/hands/scap....by turning the barrel.

His lead arm extension loads his lead arm pit area. What is loaded will unload. IF he loaded his hands/reararm/scap....he would unload that.

His technique is poor so he has 'action' in the wrong place.

This guy does exactly what guppy wants him to do.....get lead arm extension.....or as he said recently 'lengthens his lever'....and therefore his physics are good.....as if that has anything to do with creating a short usable swing. Of course....guppy knows the swing has problems....so now he goes with he did it too soon.

The long and short of it is he creates a spinal rotational swing....around the front hip joint....instead of a hand pivot point and a rear hip pivot point.

[Teacherman]

Do you feel if Macias' bat was angled similar to how Howard's bat is angled (in the "ready position") that Macias would be less prone to "pull the knob"?

The bat angle is a symptom of a long lever.

[Teacherman]

I don't know the exact year or series of years where it happened.... but the modern day players swing much differently than the 'oldtimer HOF'ers'.

Somewhere along the line....the swing plane went diagonal....away from horizontal.

[swingbuilder]

Lead arm extension is an effect in a good swing not a cause. Its the effect of proper loading and that loading isn't by using the arms to push the hands back.

Its why we call a lefthanded hitter a lefthanded hitter and vice versa with a righty. Use the leftside to hit with if your lefthanded and use the right side if your righthanded.

[HiddenGem]

Macias was not taught how to apply pressure to the handle to rotate the bat.

BS....this hitter looks the same as Macias.

This HOF'er "lays the bat off" early.

The hitter on the right lays the bat off early, but he knows how to use his top hand. The hitter on the left does not.

[Pronk]

BS....this hitter looks the same as Macias.

I don't see it that way. Kaline rotates into footplant. Maybe rotate isn't the best word or one preferred these days, but his body is in a completely different position that Macias when he starts moving the barrel. He starts to turn it before the foot gets down and weighted.

[swingbuilder]

I agree Pronk and was about to type this when your post showed up.

[jacsil]

I'm really trying to feel the rear hip pivot point. I think Im starting to get the feel of how the rear hip and how the location of the hands are important. How you really need to have the swing started with the "C" along with keeping the hands back by the rear shoulder and having a pivot point.

Oh and pointnumberone's post about the direction of the turn of the rear hip/knee towards either 3rd or 1st depending on if your left handed or righthanded clicked a lightbulb along with richards pole drill on how the rear hip is functioning.

The following paragraph, while in the form of a statement, is really more of a question for verification.

If the pivot point is over the rear hip and you can maintain this as everything is going then you are maintaining power longer. If the hands instead of rotating around a pivot point start moving forward then you also loose the rear hip and the power that it is generating and you start to move the swing to the front leg and you loose the independant turning of the rear hip to the opposite field. Instead the momentum of the lower body becomes more linear towards the pitcher. The hands turning and maintaining a pivot point near the rear shoulder helps keep the power generation aspects of the swing tied together instead of loosing or loosening them.

Feed back on the above is appreciated.

This is hard for me for a few reasons 1) no arches flat feet make it difficult to maintain what i believe is where you need to keep the weight on the inside of the rear foot. 2) For my height my legs are rather long and not very strong especially the upper legs and butt muscles. So I think its hard to build the proper resistance. instead I experience more of a shifting of the weight rearward rather than resistance and weight building on the rear hip.

Of course I really dont know what im doing and im just learning and trying to teach to my son. I do know one thing. This does take a lot of effort. and combining this with trying to actually hit a ball that someone doesn't want you to hit well just wow.

Thanks

[HiddenGem]

I don't see it that way. Kaline rotates into footplant. Maybe rotate isn't the best word or one preferred these days, but his body is in a completely different position that Macias when he starts moving the barrel. He starts to turn it before the foot gets down and weighted.

I was referring to Points comment that Kaline Macia's wasn't taught how to torque the handle, like Kaline. Anyway you slice it, Kaline's barrell looks entirely different than Howard.

[HiddenGem]

I don't know the exact year or series of years where it happened.... but the modern day players swing much differently than the 'oldtimer HOF'ers'.

Somewhere along the line....the swing plane went diagonal....away from horizontal.

Yes, I agree.