What Is The Axis Of Rotation In These Two Hitters?

[Teacherman]

Let's do that.

Get a bat and ball. Self toss.

1) Throw it up, hit it, while not letting your lead leg touch until after you "go".

2) Throw it up, hit it, "go" after you've weighted the front leg and established a front leg axis. With either a 50/50 weight distribution or 100% forward.

Which way can you hit it further?

You can learn a lot from self toss.

P.S. Tom's word "pivot point" is a much better way of describing the rotation than my word axis.

P.S.1 As to your "core" question. I see no contradiction. The core muscles unload the hips/torso around the rear hip joint pivot point.

[Teacherman]

Bonds "steps in the bucket" on almost every swing. It is very slight, but noticable.

Bonds

Is it so he can "angle" his hips?.....so that when he unloads at the rear hip and shifts weight into the front leg that that front leg lever enhances or supports....versus causes....rotation?

Is it because he knows the pending direction of the rear hip joint is forward and upward....therefore just a slight opening of the lead leg helps? That the slightly offset lever will enhance the rotation.....versus cause it?



And even on this pitch....an offspeed pitch that he waits a long time for....then hits it out of the park....watch his rear hip come up and forward as much as it can from the position he gets to.

[Slapper23]

Is it so he can "angle" his hips?.....so that when he unloads at the rear hip and shifts weight into the front leg that that front leg lever enhances or supports....versus causes....rotation?

Is it because he knows the pending direction of the rear hip joint is forward and upward....therefore just a slight opening of the lead leg helps? That the slightly offset lever will enhance the rotation.....versus cause it?

Rich,

I see the front leg as a lever which enhances and supports rotation, not causing it. I also see the front leg in it's role as a lever in controlling momentum and transferring it into the upper torso. The front leg provides resistance and gives the body something to hit against. In terms of pivot points, I still see the front hip socket as a pivot point. I'm having trouble understanding the rear hip socket as a pivot point.

Going back to one of your previous posts, of course I see the forearms rotate and send the barrel backwards. Last night, I even used the phrase "your forearms swivel" in working with a hitter. Never done that before.

I agree with Tom that I do not like spinning, and I showed the hitter the difference between spinning (which she has a tendency to do) and in directing her momentum into the front leg and getting off the backside. "Force projection" is another way to view it. So, that is why I like the "swinging gate" concept. I will continue to look at what you're talking about though.

Mike

[swingbuilder]

Rich, I think it would be good to add the swing of Brandon you had as your avatar back in the Nyman days and do a side by side of where he is now. I think that would answer this discussion pretty well.

[Slapper23]

Builder, if you or anyone else has thoughts on the rear hip pivot point action, I would like to hear it. I'm struggling to see it.

Mike

[Teacherman]

Here you go.

[swingbuilder]

no no, go back further. To maybe a HS game when he was like in 9th or 10th grade. maybe he was even younger. You had it as an avatar under your name.

funny...how about this statement. "Be the Avatar"

[tom.guerry]

Mike -

Part I -

I think much of your concern about front vs back hip may be a nonissue which will take care of itself by focussing on earlier and other parts of the swing.

The mlb pattern can be though of as an adaptation of the 2 plane golf swing powered by "xfactor stretch" of the torso with the KEY to the overall pattern being passive/responsive shoulders working between the active arms and hands.

McLean says:

"Here's how it works: When you coil into your right [back] side during the backswing (above left), energy is transferred and stored into that side. You release it properly through the correct sequence of body motion at the transition, starting with a substantial lateral move of the hips toward the target. Your shoulders and arms follow. That's right: The upper body and lower body should work independently. The hips and legs separate from the upper body and start forward (above right). That's when the X-Factor peaks."

http://www.golfdigest.com/instructio...clean_xfactor1

Especially:

"That's right: The upper body and lower body should work independently."

This harkens back to the old Nyman description of how the swing could resemble the Mankin torque and CHP model. Originally, Nyman was on what I consider the "right" track which was that their were separate upper and lower body programs that needed to somehow synch and merge. Nyman could not figure out how this worked, so he abandoned this model for the "simple/repeatable" PCR+/-W model. The mlb swing is primarily ADJUSTABLE by stretch and fire, NOT repeatable by brute force rotation.
Before taking this 5+ year detour, Nyman wrote to Jack:

"As an aside, I never answered a question you asked on another web site (subject was giving up on swing). My interpretation of professor Adair's analysis is that once the center of mass of the bat is allowed to leave the path of the hands, centripetal acceleration (whip effect) will now try to pull the bat out of your hands. The further the center of mass gets from the center of motion (typically the batters spinal column, the greater the force ((V^2/R)*M, where M=mass of bat, V=speed of center of mass and R = distance from center of motion). But V (speed of bat) will decrease as momentum is sucked out of system (system being bodies mass in rotation). The momentum transfer process is instantaneous. The goal is to get the bat head fully extended at the point of bodies maximum momentum (before the limits of muscle travel/force drop off). Once the head of the bat (center of mass) leaves my hand path, a self feeding extension will take place (self feeding because centripetal acceleration is V^2/R and V=R*W, where W=hitters body rotational velocity, thus centripetal acceleration = ((R*W)*(R*W))/R which equals R^2*W^2/R or R*W^2; centripetal acceleration will increase as the radius increases assuming W^2 remains reasonably stable (extend bat at bodies maximum rotational velocity, i.e. bodies maximum rotational momentum)). If the bodies angular momentum (rotational momentum) is significantly larger than the bats extended momentum, the bat head will continue to accelerate outwards rapidly (the radius R, gets bigger, acceleration gets bigger, accelerates faster, etc). The faster I can get the bat head extended, the sooner I reach maximum bat head speed (assuming I am at maximum rotational momentum). So far I have stuck with professor Adair’s model (weight on end of rope).But, if I rely on only the whip effect, I might not get the bat extended before I start to lose momentum because of the body slowing down (reached the limits of muscle travel). Unlike professor Adairs weight on the end of a rope, a bat is rigid. I can assist the bat head getting extended by the wrists pushing the bat head out faster (wrists release in a chopping motion). This helps get the bat head out of my hand path faster, especially at the beginning when the head is just starting out of the path and has only a small centripetal acceleration. This extension, where the arms, wrists are trying to force the bat head out is what I mean by not giving up on the swing (follow through). The batter tries to drive/extend the bat out using his wrists and arms at the same time pulling his back hip around as hard as possible."


So notice that he got the gist of things with EARLY handle torque (but not as early as it really happens, confusing it with unhinging of wrists through contact) and ALSO with good back hip focus which he describes as "pull".

The golf swing does not have to adjust on the fl, BUT there is still a big limiation of the 2 plane golf swing which is that you can not swing completely "vertically"/in a plane over the target line. This would be ideal in hitting the ball to the target every time EXCEPT for the fact that you have to worry about a well timed sqaring/rotation of the clubface which is more and more quick and prone toerror the more vertical the plane gets.

So when you adapt this pattern for MLB, you don't have to worry about clubface rotation, you instead focus on adjusting the swing plane on the fly to create a generous contact zone for contact. You quicken things by shortening the arm lever as much as possible and by adjusting the swing plane late by hand/limb/shoulder action.

So in the MLB pattern, it is HANDS AND HIPS with the shoulders responding, BUT ALSO with the HANDS/UPPER BODY much more dominant as compared to golf.

[tom.guerry]

Part II-

Even though the lower body is less dominated in golf, however, the turn of the hips is still largely triggered by response to upper body/arm action. When the swing sequence has gotten to the point of the arms swinging actively DOWN in golf, this makes the hips keep turning ahead of the torso to accelerate the clubhead.

The same is true in MLB, evenmoreso. IF you understand how to prepare and sequence the swing you will have:

1- inward turn of whole body to turn back enough to have early batspeed for matching plane of outside/low location if necessary. This will be associated with a negative move of more weight going to back foot and hands keeping their relation to torso or moving closer to center/belly button (as with Bonds or others "hitching the hands down).

Typically, this is when you load into the back hips and cock the hips to carry the momentum forward

Typically, there is a synched INternal rotation of front leg (urn front knee in) and back arm (beginning of BHUT)

2-forward momentum of whole body with spread of knees/legs using back foot as base and lift of back arm. Now you have forward "linear" momentum that is carried forward while retaining the abilty to later "shift" due to retaining the hip cock/torso activation. This momentum is what will be needed later to keep the axis going forward/upright if necessary for high ball.
So the initial inward turn will allow covering outside if necessary and the forward momentum will allow covering high all if necessary.

This is "forward by turning", stride foot still in air, ending with full "TIP" of bat.

3- next you start the running start/float/untipping by synched external rotation of back arm and front leg which may be a noteach if you feel it as handle torque that triggers the front leg to start opening. This is the active coiling of the body typically as you "rotate into toe touch" (although in the off the plate style, you can get the front foot down but not with much weight before you start to coil, Brett is something like this). Front leg turns open and hips then back leg start to turn as slack comes out.

The trunk/torso muscles are lengthening as they load, so you need to "sit" to accomodate/keep them o stretch/stretching.


The sooner you start the untipping, the shorter the swing radius and the more the direction of weight shift will bo toward stepping in the bucket,

For example, if you are looking outside and recognizing outside, you would let the ball get a little deeper as you take a little longer for the lead arm/scap to stretch to make a longer swing radius.

While the untipping starts more with back arm/top hand action. the lead arm/bottom hand immediately starts to dominate as you prepare to start the lead arm internal rotation/jut

4 - NOW you are ready for the GO move that Richard describes where you synch HANDLE TORQUE by forearm emphasis and shoulder tilt slaved to hands AND weight shfting to front foot.

The direction of weight shift will have been determined by how much you loaded the hands back and in. With the longer radius/higher load as for outside, the weigh will shift more square or closed rather than in bucket.

The tilt will finish the up/down adjustment by back shoulder staying up as front shoulder laterally tilts up for high ball which stops sit and stretches torso and brings head/axis more forward.

Low ball recognition drops shoulder earlier which keeps axis tilted back and launches more lopping swing to match low ball.

Timing/depth of contact is about same for in/out if you were looking in or out and anticipating swing radius accordingly as the swing sequenced (let it get deep for outside relative to looking inside).

IF you do all those things prior to "drop and tilt" THEN the hips will fire right in response to focussing on applying torque with the forearms. lead forearm juts, back forearm swivels without uncocking wrists. A lot of things have to synch BUT forearm GO is numero no.

Torso stretch must be underway with well synched upper/lower body running start

shoulders have to tilt.

weight has to go to front foot.

Front leg must be ready to resist/provide ground reaction force with shock absorber/stretch refelx type tone.

Thrust of back hip will feel like you can kick the back knee (swingbuolder drill).

BUT, focus/emphasis needs to be on FOREARMS and string tension must remain in lead elbow.

Even moreso than in golf, the right upper body resistance controlled by hands with forearms as primary actor/supported by shoulder tilt WILL make the hips respond to give optimal support.

[Teacherman]

This one?

[swingbuilder]

I think so....WOW, look at the difference's.

[Slapper23]

Tom,

I think much of your concern about front vs back hip may be a nonissue which will take care of itself by focussing on earlier and other parts of the swing.

Tom, I was hoping for that.

Thanks very much for your well thought out replies. I agree with and like your explanation of the swing process, and always have. Much to the chagrin of certain others, I must say!


Mike

[Teacherman]