Shoulder Rotation Equal Bat Drag????

[Teacherman]

Assume you have achieved good separation. Hands/shoulders back hips open. You're in a good launch position.

Assume the "whip" is a must. The barrel must "whip" so the body must "cusp".

Assume the hands torque the barrel rearward etc etc. and kind of "throw" the barrel into its arc.

Option 1: The shoulders resist rotation and remain back, as best they can for as long as they can, as the hips open.

Option 2: The shoulders rotate with the hips.

Question......Which option will cause the barrel "whip" first.....or....the soonest. Which will cause the barrel to "feel"/"receive" the energy of the swing the soonest.

IMO......shoulder rotation equals barrel slide (the shoulders turning forward moves the hands forward without the barrel arcing)....therefore bat drag. As the shoulders receive the energy they rotate and this moves the hands.....not the barrel.

If the shoulders resist....doesn't the energy go directly to the hands/forearms....therefore the barrel.....forcing it to arc....using all the energy the body creates (none is bled by the shoulders) to force the barrel to arc????

The barrel must receive the energy very very quickly. I believe shoulder rotation "is in the way" of that. It bleeds off energy and slows the barrels arc......and results in "less than top quality" ball/bat squaring.

In other words....does creating an extra "link" in the chain degrade the barrels whip? Does it create "barrel slide" and degrade your ability to square?

I've been taking some swings. I've felt a difference in the lab for some time. I think I'm getting a deeper understanding of "why".

[Erik]

Assume you have achieved good separation. Hands/shoulders back hips open. You're in a good launch position.

Assume the "whip" is a must. The barrel must "whip" so the body must "cusp".

Assume the hands torque the barrel rearward etc etc. and kind of "throw" the barrel into its arc.

Option 1: The shoulders resist rotation and remain back, as best they can for as long as they can, as the hips open.

Option 2: The shoulders rotate with the hips.

Question......Which option will cause the barrel "whip" first.....or....the soonest. Which will cause the barrel to "feel"/"receive" the energy of the swing the soonest.

IMO......shoulder rotation equals barrel slide (the shoulders turning forward moves the hands forward without the barrel arcing)....therefore bat drag. As the shoulders receive the energy they rotate and this moves the hands.....not the barrel.

If the shoulders resist....doesn't the energy go directly to the hands/forearms....therefore the barrel.....forcing it to arc....using all the energy the body creates (none is bled by the shoulders) to force the barrel to arc????

The barrel must receive the energy very very quickly. I believe shoulder rotation "is in the way" of that. It bleeds off energy and slows the barrels arc......and results in "less than top quality" ball/bat squaring.

In other words....does creating an extra "link" in the chain degrade the barrels whip? Does it create "barrel slide" and degrade your ability to square?

I've been taking some swings. I've felt a difference in the lab for some time. I think I'm getting a deeper understanding of "why".

Continue.



EL,

[Teacherman]

Well....



The above swing and set of frames shows Pujol's barrel bluring with his shoulders still resisting. I believe this resistance sends the energy to the barrel. By eliminating the movement of shoulder rotation....which would eat up some of the energy created....sends ALL of the energy to the forearms to complete the whip.

The fifth frame shows the beginning of barrel blur.....hardly any shoulder turn has taken place.

The sixth frame shows the bat into lag....and completely blurred out....hardly any shoulder turn has taken place.

Yet.....the barrel has great speed.



Above......Frame 4.....barrel blur.....shoulders have not moved much. Are they resisting? Does this resistance send the energy to the barrel? A clear example of handle torque. The shoulders haven't turned enough to generate the speed shown by the blur. Most importantly....the hands have hardly moved at all. Little to no forward movement. They are still back....still at the armpit....."Back" means they aren't moving forward....which would "slide the barrel" instead of "arc" the barrel.



Above are the frames through contact of the same swing. IMO....the torque in the swing has already happened. The barrel is on autopilot as it enters the contact zone. Like a ball on the end of a string....the barrel is flung into it's orbit with an instantaneous torque (and spend) onto the handle. At this point the barrel is moving the hands.....not the other way around. Much like the "feel" of a ball on a string.

[Shelby Richards]

Well....

To me Pujols swing looks like a classic example of "live and independent hands".

I would call this hand torque so much as he is using both hands to "pull" the knob of the bat towards contact ahead of shoulder rotation.

Looks typical to me.

[Teacherman]

Live and active hands is good. Hands pulling to the ball is bad.

You can't have both. Arm movement deteriorates the proper hand usage.

In fact....live and active hands may describe what he's doing. Pulling to the ball has to be done with arms...not hands. The arms need to be eliminated.

Watch the barrel arc at "go". It isn't pulled.

The barrel blurs rearward at "go".

How can pulling the knob do that?

Impossible.

Only handle torque can create the barrels direction and speed exhibited by high level swingers.

Watch how much the barrel arcs BEFORE the hands move forward. The weight of the barrel being turned rearward is the answer to keeping the hands at the armpit and not letting them travel to create speed.

I challenge you to make a video of yourself duplicating his barrel movement at 'go'.

It will teach you something.

[Shelby Richards]

Live and active hands is good. Hands pulling to the ball is bad.

You can't have both.

The hands are pulling the knob.

You most certainly can have both.

The handle torque you are talking about is simply the pulling of the knob towards contact. It is nothing more than that.

As the knob is pulled the top hand tries to orientate into a flat, or palm-up, position. This is what is blurring the bat.

As the top hand begins pulling, the elbow must tuck in, and the forearm action that takes place for this to happen is what you are confusing for hand torque.

There are no MLB hitters that think handle torque to initiate their swing.

[Pronk]

The hands are pulling the knob.

You most certainly can have both.

The handle torque you are talking about is simply the pulling of the knob towards contact. It is nothing more than that.

As the knob is pulled the top hand tries to orientate into a flat, or palm-up, position. This is what is blurring the bat.

As the top hand begins pulling, the elbow must tuck in, and the forearm action that takes place for this to happen is what you are confusing for hand torque.

I disagree. The bat goes from vertical to around the 45 slot, and actually close to being flat before the hands come forward. If I were pulling the knob then I think I'd see forward movement of the hands sooner.

There are no MLB hitters that think handle torque to initiate their swing.

Agreed. But many things debated on the "internets" regarding hitting are more of things we see, not necessarily what they are thinking. However one thing different about this site is by exploring the hands as being more critical, we are paying attention to what MLB hitters say they do think about. (usually most talk of the hands).

[swingbuilder]

There is not such thing as handle torque in the true definition of torque. One hand is not working in the opposite direction of the other hand. I don't feel nor believe in BHT or THT.

[tom.guerry]

Richard -

I think you have it right.

Any active shoulder rotation or attempt to minimize separation by turning things together/focussing on turning whole torso will smooth out the cusp and remove ability to direct cusp sharpness and orientation late in the swing.

The hips have to lead the shoulders which means that they turn more bottom up first as the running start, then in response to the upper body as smooth uninterrupted coil/cusp/uncoil plays out.

The handle in charge demands that the energy go to the bathead eliminating drag.

Any other way will overrotate the body,slow acceleration, start acceleration too far forward and prevent late adjustment/limit read time.

There is only one basic adequate mlb pattern.

I DO believ in torque and I beleive it becasue of comparison across skills.

Handle torque is often called leverage in golf and the idea is to minimize it, but evn then it happens in some swings.

Compared to that there is lots of handle torque (and shoulder tilt too) in the mlb hitting pattern.

[Shelby Richards]

There is not such thing as handle torque in the true definition of torque. One hand is not working in the opposite direction of the other hand. I don't feel nor believe in BHT or THT.

That is exactly my point.

Why I see is the top hand moving so as to be in a palm-up position upon contact.

[Teacherman]

More thought today led to another way of saying the same thing.

If you start to "lose" the "shoulders back hips open" separation by allowing the shoulders to bleed open, then the energy being created is whipping the rear shoulder toward contact....not the barrel. Allowing that link to move...allowing that link to receive the energy and therefore move that body part (the shoulders)...instead of keeping it "locked down".....instead of resisting shoulder turn.....creates a link that moves and this movement takes away from the barrel arcing to contact. It puts movement into that link...that link arcs toward the ball instead of the barrel. The rear shoulder receives the energy and is moved. Not the barrel. The rear shoulder would be whipped....not the barrel. This is "slop" or "slack" in the swing. This is "looseness" that keeps energy from reaching the barrel. As the shoulders turn open.....the barrel will slide....not arc. Therefore....bat drag.

If you "keep" the "shoulders back hips open" separation by resisting shoulder rotation the energy created is sent directly to the barrel. And it arcs immediately. This is early batspeed and deep batspeed. Locking down the shoulders....done by the lateral tilt move.....reduces the number of links from which energy can be bled. Therefore all energy would go to the one moving link......the hands (driven by the forearms) which will immediately arc the barrel. No barrel slide.

Pulling on the knob to start the swing IS a slop filled, slack filled, technique. Because....no matter what you do with the top hand while that happens, the barrel will not arc to the zone optimally until the lead arm reaches it's stop. Not until it reaches it's stop is the top hand leveraged to arc the barrel around the lead arm. Resistance is needed for the hands to work properly. If everything is moving they can not work efficiently. The pulling the knob swing is a SLOW developing process. It will not allow deep contact...at least not any deep contact with any barrel speed. The moving of the hands by any pulling or pushing motion of the arms....toward the ball....as well as any turning movement of the shoulders....which moves the hands toward the ball.....degrades the hitters ability to have an instantaneous launch. It degrades his ability to "square" bat and ball optimally. It puts him behind the timing curve.

[Teacherman]

Swingbuilder is correct in that the hands do not work against each other.

They work together in the same direction. The lead forearm pronates as the rear forearm supinates. This turns the barrel rearward.

But......as they work together as described.....doesn't that "torque" the handle?

I believe it does. It creates a pivot point around which the barrel rotates. As compared to pulling the knob which would be "arm" stuff......and we all know its hips and hands.....not hips and arms.

[Teacherman]

Shelby,

You have homework. I'm trying to see if you are a real "truth seeker" or a "religious fanatic".

Get out your bat and your video camera. I want you to make your barrel do this...



And when I say "this" I mean the same barrel action. Watch the barrel. Watch the barrel blur. Watch when that happens. Watch where that happens. Watch where the hands are when that happens. Watch the position of the shoulders when that starts. Watch the position of the barrel before the hands move forward....etc etc.

It will probably take you several "takes". When you are finished post the video and tell us what you had to do to duplicate the movement.

Assignment is due this weekend.

I await your results. I do not grade on a curve.

[Teacherman]

The hands are pulling the knob.

I think not.

[swingbuilder]

I dont feel the torque. Nor do I see any torque of the handle. I believe the supination and pronation is a result of grip and swivel and not a force against the handle.