Holy Grail #....(I lost track)

[Teacherman]

There is a relationship between a rearward barrel at 'go' and proper weight shift.

AND....

There is a relationship between bat drag and weight shift. And therefore a reason why 'they' have so much of it.

Can you define that relationship?

[Stealth]

Other than just holding onto the bat..............

[Pronk]

I'm either stumped or just incapable of thinking right now. Actually it's clearly the latter. Riddle me this.....

Been staring at Steve E but I not quite sure where you are going with this. Let me ask this are we speaking of classing internet bat drag where the elbow is ahead of the hands? Or do you mean PCRish dragging as you've referred to?

I remember a quick lesson I gave number one son with a wooden dowel about loading later and how it will make everything work better downstream. Of course we were not really up or knowledgable on lead arm deceleration so even though the later load helped bat drag it's still not a great swing, but loading later surely seemed to carry the weight on the back leg longer.

[swingbuilder]

Plenty of cusp on right. I like the swing. Shoes on to! None on the left. nor any ride of the back leg and the block is spent early.

[Stealth]

The interesting thing with bat drag is that you actually have to wait longer before you start to swing. The problem is many kids with bat drag never pull the ball. They are constantly late and hitting flares to the opposite side. They "think" they have to swing earlier which actually makes the problem worse. They start early, often times getting out front while their hands have not moved, the elbow gets in front and they are dead. And to top it off you here coaches yelling "start earlier, your late" - it just makes things worse.

[Pronk]

Plenty of cusp on right. I like the swing. Shoes on to! None on the left. nor any ride of the back leg and the block is spent early.

That's just it we tried the clip on the right literally the next day. I watched his game swing scratching my head going "son I am pretty sure that's now how we practice" let's try this again. And my point was just that loading late and carrying that back leg can be remarkably easy to teach but it will take a confident athlete to carry it over to the game.

Now it could be that he is just not enough of an athlete yet, or he needs to mature a little more, even with a bat he'll usually swing like the clip on the right when he's with me, but revert a little to the clip on the left in a game (though not as bad now a few months later).

Lately he's started to tap back, ala Bonds to trick himself into not loading the hands too soon.

Anyway I don't want to sidetrack this too much, but the clip was more to let Rich know what I was looking at in trying to figure out the riddle.

[tom.guerry]

Pronk-

That is a fantastic comparison clip which illustrates not only a big difference, but how quickly you jump in and out of one pattern/get attracted into/captured by a pattern.

The one on the left is more bugsquishin.

The one on the right is more back leg push/anti-bugsquishin where as Yeager desc ribes it, the back heel woulld come forward and up before the front heel will be put down.

This type of back leg push is necessary for good single legged hitting where you finish pushing before yo block.

This gets the hips turning open/coiling in sequence for a better controlled/later stretch and fire which works differently from PCR.

In the PCR pattern, you do not load back and resist with upper body which is what forces drag and late batspeed.

You (partially/inadequately with respect to MLB challenge) by the arm tension, handpath hook and turning the legs/hips OUT of sequence by letting the knees ghet closer together which lets the hips and torso spin faster, but the more you do this the more "early batspeed" becomes impoassible/the less the hands can stay back.

The better timed weight shift, neg and pos move/back leg push/carry/coil/sit waiting for shift at GO stretches the knees/legs hips more from legs/bottmo up, synched with the hands torqing the handle to PREPARE FOR GO, which is the firing of the hands and hips together superimposed on this snched/well timed coil/load/preparation.

An entirely different sequence from how the hips and torso work in "PCR".

[Teacherman]

This is difficult to see.....and therefore even more difficult to explain....so bear with me.

In this clip Steve has already shifted his weight to the front leg (the clip is cropped to soon to actually see it) and his weight is in fact moving rearward in this clip as he firms up his lead leg. Away from contact. His weight is in his right but cheek. He is rotating around the front hip joint. The energy is 'in' the front hip joint. He is pulling his hip around with the lead leg post. He has shifted weight to that leg and is trying to create rotation around the front hip joint AFTER having already shifted the weight.

From reading Nyman's recent posts, and from my time with them, and from reading Mark H parrot their 'momentum' stuff, over and over and over.....I doubt seriously that they know the difference between weight shift (weight shifting from the rear leg to front leg) and momentum. From his posts, it is very clear BM doesn't know the difference. I have heard the PCR guys say 'ride the back leg'. But, I've never heard them say 'maintain the rear hip load' as you ride that leg. Why would they when they don't believe any push comes from the rear leg? Their 'ride the back leg' is just momentum creation.....it's just 'going forward'......or 'forward by turning'.....getting weight to the front leg....to the tune of 50/50 on each leg.....so you can then 'turn the middle'. They have a two legged base, each equally weighted, from which they turn from the middle.

Now, look at Bonds. He is shifting his weight IN THE CLIP. He hasn't already shifted it.....like Steve did....and then attempt to rotate. His weight is in his left butt cheek. His left cheek and hip and leg are driving the mechanism. They are the energy producer. The lead leg provides a post....resistance.....around which the drive of the back side works around.

Now, to my original point.....regarding the rearward barrel blur and bat drag. Test this out yourself. Stand one-legged....on your rear leg and turn the barrel with your hands. Next, from the same position, take you lead arm up into the swing plane and swing 'around the shoulders'.

Now, stand two legged with weight into the front leg and try to turn the barrel with your hands. Then move your lead arm up into the swing plane and swing 'around your spine'.

You should 'get' the point. IF your weight is forward....into the front hip....and your hands are at the armpit.....no matter what you try....the barrel can not be sent rearward at 'go' like the pros do. All you can do is 'pull it'....drag it. That can only be done from a loaded/weighted back side.

Back to the clip. Notice the difference in their lead arm action. Steve's lead arm is 'already up'.....and is pulling.....even if it is a rotational pull.....a rotational knob pull.....because that's all he can do from his 'weight' position.....from his weight forward position.....from his 'already shifted' position.....from his two-legged stance....from his 'rotate around the front hip' position.

All he can do is hope the barrel flys off the merry go round on time and accurately. And the action that he's depending on is action that includes weight and energy going away from the ball. Right hip joint going rearward. Lead arm and hands taking the hard right.

Bond's lead arm, on the other hand, is not doing the same thing. His lead arm is 'working up'.....it wasn't 'already up' from which he just turns. He is turning it up. He is torquing the handle. Because he can. Because of his 'weight' position. Because of his 'weight back' position when he started turning the barrel.....he is shifting the weight AS he turns the barrel. His weight is going from back to front AS he turns the barrel. His rear leg is pushing also....adding to the overall energy level. Everything is working together.....at once. Weight shift....hip turn....leg drive.....handle torque......all at once. Steve shifted....then turned....and never uses any leg drive.....and Lord knows they don't use the hands to torque the barrel.

My conclusion is that there is a relationship between barrel turning and proper weight shift. That if you shift early all you can do is then pull with the lead arm and shoulders....and that is slow. Slow because you've segmented the swing. Shift, turn, pull........and drag it......whether it is the classic 'elbow leading the hand' type drag.....or if it is the 'blind' drag......no elbow leading the hand....just a slow moving in accurate barrel.

You simply can not do what Bonds does from Steve's 'weight' position. From the forward weight position.

Mark it down......the swing puts the foot down.....(weights the front foot).

P.S. Watch how much further and quicker Bond's barrel moves.....while their lower body's 'appear' to go the same distance.

[Teacherman]

Regarding the ridiculous bbf thread....that both BM and Nyman are showing their ignorance in.....what I've described above matches Yeager's push....and complete the push before the block. And this is why 'they' can't get it.

Because they don't understand the weight shfit....when....how.....why. All they can 'see' is momentum.

Why would you not want the powerful rear leg drive coming up through the center of your swing.

Swinging from the one-legged rear hip pivot point, into a front leg block is VERY important and critical to a good swing. Getting everything working at the same time.....rear leg push, rear hip push, rotation, and handle torque....into the block of the lead leg.....is what defines the high level swing.

And it is soooo simple once you 'get it'.

BTW.....the answer to what initiates rotation.....IMO......is the coil. Yep.....the inward turn. That coil is quicly and easily reversed.....it basically does it on it's own.....it hits it's 'stop' and immediately reverses.....which is the beginning of the lower body running start.....coil turning to uncoil.....and because the hips are opening.....from the coil....even if ever so slightly at that point.....that it is difficult to see....the upward power that comes out of the rear leg push and hip push.....accelerates the separation which leads to the stretch and fire launch.

[Teacherman]

All of this goes to support Garrett's statement that it really isn't rotation.....at least rotation that 'they' talk about.....nor the rotation that we've all been led to believe. The hips do open. They do turn. But......something else is going on. Something much more powerful. Something much quicker. Something much more sudden. Something that doesn't pull you off the ball.

So.......'when' or 'what' initiates rotation is a stupid question. Totally irrelevant to hitting.

[tom.guerry]

Great explanation Richard !!!!!

[Stealth]

P.S. Watch how much further and quicker Bond's barrel moves.....while their lower body's 'appear' to go the same distance.

I was watching the clips over and over BEFORE I read the quote above. I was seeing the same thing, it was jumping out at me the more I watched. I am so into this bat drag issue because I am trying to help my youngest son. Teach - great post, it really makes a lot of sense.

[Teacherman]

Here is a good example of one-legged hitting.....keeping the weight back....not letting it shift......maintaining the rear hip and leg load AS you move forward........not losing it.....and having it's full force available at 'go'.

If you do this properly.....you can make the barrel go rearward at 'go' with handle torque. If the weight shifts before 'go'.....you will drag the bat. If the weight is forward....you will pull the knob and drag the bat. If the weight his back you can turn the barrel.

You must hit from one leg.

Another important point......the upward drive of the rear leg.....the coming out of a one-legged knee bend.....IMO.....happens a fraction of a microsecond first......and this 'glues' the parts together. This act makes sure everything......rear leg drive.....rear hip unload.....rotation (if there is any).....weight shift.....and handle torque all happen together.....at 'go'.

You are probably looking at that clip and saying...."where the hell is the upward drive of the rear leg". Well....this is another feel v video thing. The weight of the pelvis sitting on the femur.....creating an isometric 'look'.....in other words....nothing is moving upward.....doesn't mean the upward drive isn't there. It simply means the downward push of the pelvis (rear hip joint) against the femur controls the degree of upward movement.

But the upward drive is absolute.



Here is a professional hitter that uses his rear hip properly.....you can see a good load and unload.....but he does not use his rear leg properly. And therefore has a two part swing. The lower body goes....then the hands. They must go together. He would not do that with the upward rear leg drive. Why? Because the upward drive of the rear leg is the glue. It is the connector. It forces everything to join by signalling that there is enough power. In fact, the powerful upward rear leg drive is so quick and so sudden that the upper body CAN NOT be late. There will never be the SOS signal sent.....the signal that says "I need more"....which is exactly what happens when the arms take over. They 'know' that what is going on down below isn't enough....that more is needed. Therefore the arms are recruited.....which is not the high level pattern. Late speed and no adjustability results....blah blah blah.

This hitter is simply an upper body swinger. The lower body does turn...the rear hip was loaded....it unloaded....but there was no connection to the upper body. The rear leg did not 'auger'...it did not drive and turn the upper body. The upper body turn happened a fraction of a second later. That means....all this hitter got out of his lower body was the momentum of it's unload. It did no work.

Long and short of it......his rear hip joint did not engage with the femur.....because the femur was not driven upward into the socket. The gears didn't engage. The socket didn't reach the bolt.....or more accurately.....the bolt didn't extend...was driven upward....into the socket.

[Teacherman]

Let me go out on another limb....

The hips are moving forward as they turn......the rear leg drive moves them forward and the femur/hip socket engagement turns them....at the same time......until they hit the lead leg block.

There is no shift then turn. There is shift and turn.....a small amount of turn.....the rotational running start.....the opening into footplant.....metered by the lead leg/thigh......then the block.

The shift that everyone believes is so special is accompanied by hip turn/opening.....even if you can't see it

This can only be done from one leg.

[Teacherman]

Another angle of attack....another angle of explanation.

Imagine your rear leg is a tether ball pole that can rotate. And....instead of the ball being hit around a stationery pole.....the pole itself turns very rapidly and as a result the rope/ball winds the around the pole.

Your rear leg drive is similar to this. It's upward drive engages the hip socket and/or the hip socket 'sits' onto the head of the femur and everything above it turns as a result.

That is what this clip demonstrates.



Here is before and after....



On the left is two-legged hitting....shift to the front leg first....pull the knob....drag the bat. That's all you can do with weight on two legs. No rear hip load. No rear leg load. No rear leg drive.

If you aren't using the upward drive of your rear leg you aren't using all the tools in your box. And a very important one at that.