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How About Some History To Clarify "The Push"

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  • How About Some History To Clarify "The Push"

    The PCR and PCRW crowd, and their insistance that there is no push from the rear foot against the ground, is trapped by something else they promote that is incorrect and not supported by video.

    Their insistance that rotation is around the front leg/hip is the root of their problem. You can not rotate around the front hip joint AND push with the rear foot/leg. You can push into a front leg block....which is misinterpreted by them as rotation about the front leg....but you can't rotate about the front leg and push.

    To be clear....I'm speaking from the 'feel' of the energy production. The energy is produced by the rear leg and hip. It is directed or kept into rotation by the front leg block.

    In order to rotate about the front hip joint, you have to shift then swing. Two steps. Carefully look at their word selection. MarkH (and others) recently parroted PsychoE's "you shift and then very very quickly drop the heel and rotate".

    Sounds reasonable. But it is backward. And is very destructive. Yeager says the shift puts the foot down. HE says the rear foot push is done....spent....before the front leg blocks.

    I call it one-legged hitting....meaning you ride the back leg and you launch by pushing with the rear leg and hip joint. The launch of the swing puts the foot down. To be more accurate, I should say the launch of the swing 'weights' the front foot/leg....as when the foot gets down is simply a matter of timing on any given pitch. When it is weighted is another matter.

    Herein lies the problem. They believe you shift, weight the front foot/leg, then rotate. IF that is the case then there can't be much of a rear leg/foot push. And they continually point to the fact that the rear leg doesn't extend. Which it doesn't. And that is their evidence that there is not a push from that leg. So....they are left with 'rotation from the middle'.

    Another culprit of their misinterpretation of the video is their insistance on tilt in the posture. Recently I posted a clip of me sitting and showed how this is misinterpreted as tilt. It is not. It is sit. And the sit includes a little tilt for balancing. It is not tilt that includes a little sit. It is sit that includes a little tilt.

    Why is that important? Because with tilt (and turn) you won't use/need the rear leg/foot push. After all....you're not using the rear leg much because you're going to shift to the front leg then rotate (from the middle). Therefore, a large push from the leg is a bad thing. A little push to shift you to the lead leg to rotate is ok. And since they don't see the rear leg extend they conclude that there is no significant push.

    But....if you sit....you will feel a rear leg load. You will feel the power in your rear leg. Why? Because when you weight that leg....when you put your weight over/onto it by sitting, you 'feel' what a push can do. And here is the rub.....with that weight over/onto the rear leg, when you push the leg won't extend. BUT THAT DOESN'T MEAN YOU AREN'T PUSHING....AND PUSHING LIKE HELL. You are pushing somewhat isometrically. Pushing upward, with the leg, against a hip and butt which are sitting downward, isn't necessarily going to produce a large linear weight shift forward. IN FACT, the leg pushing upward against a hip/butt sitting downward as you move forward, WILL OPEN THE HIPS. It will create the rotational lower body running start. It's kind of like they are being squeezed open.

    Add to that the proper use of resistance in the upper body.....you will find that the push that doesn't necessarily show up on video exists and is LARGE and very important.

    If they would swing a bat live they would learn this. And, IF they would apply their throwing knowledge to hitting, they would KNOW this. This lower body push from the rear leg which is exhausted before the lead leg block....is the same thing that happens in throwing. This is how the body works.

    And this leads to the point Garrett made recently....that Nyman is now pooh poohing. The REAL lower body action of the swing is to clear the front hip/leg with the shift, create an offset of the hip bones, and then launch the rear leg and rear hip toward the ball.

    The swing is NOT about a horizontal rotational movement of the pelvis. It is NOT about load the rear hip into the front hip and the front hip into the rear hip and stand pigeon toed in an attempt to create more distance over which you can rotate horizontally.

    That is a total misread and has led Nyman and therefore 'his boy elroy' to make irroneous conclusions and lead young innocnent kids and their dads astray.

    This swing shows everything I just talked about. PCR and PCRW has no answer for this analysis of this swing.



    There is no rotation in Bonds swing. There is hand/arm action and a 'pop' of the rear hip into the ball after he has sat, coiled/uncoiled and cleared the front hip....squeezed the hips open....during the shift.

    Do you see any aggressive horizontal hip rotation?

    Their days are numbered. If Yeager and or Hiddengem visit bbf....they will suffer a fatal attack.

  • #2
    big day. I pmed this to jbooth:
    Originally posted by Go Cardinals
    The PCR and PCRW crowd, and their insistance that there is no push from the rear foot against the ground, is trapped by something else they promote that is incorrect and not supported by video.

    Their insistance that rotation is around the front leg/hip is the root of their problem. You can not rotate around the front hip joint AND push with the rear foot/leg. You can push into a front leg block....which is misinterpreted by them as rotation about the front leg....but you can't rotate about the front leg and push.

    To be clear....I'm speaking from the 'feel' of the energy production. The energy is produced by the rear leg and hip. It is directed or kept into rotation by the front leg block.

    In order to rotate about the front hip joint, you have to shift then swing. Two steps. Carefully look at their word selection. MarkH (and others) recently parroted PsychoE's "you shift and then very very quickly drop the heel and rotate".

    Sounds reasonable. But it is backward. And is very destructive. Yeager says the shift puts the foot down. HE says the rear foot push is done....spent....before the front leg blocks.

    I call it one-legged hitting....meaning you ride the back leg and you launch by pushing with the rear leg and hip joint. The launch of the swing puts the foot down. To be more accurate, I should say the launch of the swing 'weights' the front foot/leg....as when the foot gets down is simply a matter of timing on any given pitch. When it is weighted is another matter.

    Herein lies the problem. They believe you shift, weight the front foot/leg, then rotate. IF that is the case then there can't be much of a rear leg/foot push. And they continually point to the fact that the rear leg doesn't extend. Which it doesn't. And that is their evidence that there is not a push from that leg. So....they are left with 'rotation from the middle'.

    Another culprit of their misinterpretation of the video is their insistance on tilt in the posture. Recently I posted a clip of me sitting and showed how this is misinterpreted as tilt. It is not. It is sit. And the sit includes a little tilt for balancing. It is not tilt that includes a little sit. It is sit that includes a little tilt.

    Why is that important? Because with tilt (and turn) you won't use/need the rear leg/foot push. After all....you're not using the rear leg much because you're going to shift to the front leg then rotate (from the middle). Therefore, a large push from the leg is a bad thing. A little push to shift you to the lead leg to rotate is ok. And since they don't see the rear leg extend they conclude that there is no significant push.

    But....if you sit....you will feel a rear leg load. You will feel the power in your rear leg. Why? Because when you weight that leg....when you put your weight over/onto it by sitting, you 'feel' what a push can do. And here is the rub.....with that weight over/onto the rear leg, when you push the leg won't extend. BUT THAT DOESN'T MEAN YOU AREN'T PUSHING....AND PUSHING LIKE HELL. You are pushing somewhat isometrically. Pushing upward, with the leg, against a hip and butt which are sitting downward, isn't necessarily going to produce a large linear weight shift forward. IN FACT, the leg pushing upward against a hip/butt sitting downward as you move forward, WILL OPEN THE HIPS. It will create the rotational lower body running start. It's kind of like they are being squeezed open.

    Add to that the proper use of resistance in the upper body.....you will find that the push that doesn't necessarily show up on video exists and is LARGE and very important.

    If they would swing a bat live they would learn this. And, IF they would apply their throwing knowledge to hitting, they would KNOW this. This lower body push from the rear leg which is exhausted before the lead leg block....is the same thing that happens in throwing. This is how the body works.

    I titled the pm do you agree or disagree


    here is his response. He responded twice:

    Originally posted by jbooth
    I agree with this 100% and I've been saying that that is how it works since 2003. And, I made two videos using my little model skeleton "Slim" showing how the push from the back turns the hips.

    It partly has to do with the shape of the femur and how it connects to the pelvic bone, and as is stated below, the angle it is at, from the "sit" position.

    When the femur abducts, the angle that the body is at starts rotating the hip as the torso shifts forward.

    I made a video of myself in 2004, showing a drill to get the feel of riding the back leg and turning and Richard at that time ridiculed me beyond belief. Now, he thinks it's right.

    Here's the skeleton moving. Notice how the back hip moves straight toward the camera and the front hip shifts away and then back.

    http://firstpickclub.com/video/skeletonhips1.mpg

    I've had several nasty arguments on BBF because I have stated that you do NOT rotate around the front leg/foot. Argued with Nyman and Steve E and some others about that.

    The axis is the spine. How can your head stay centered between your feet and your front leg be angled and you possibly rotate around the leg? Can't do it.

    Here's proof; the torso rotates on top of the orange line. How can you rotate around an angled front leg?

    and then he said:
    Originally posted by jbooth
    Here's a streaming video, where I explain how it works.

    http://wms17.streamhoster.com/firstpick/pbp.wmv
    "Turning is for nascar." - Cosmo34
    "Think big or you will be small."
    "You can't think and hit at the same time." - Yogi Berra

    Comment


    • #3
      I invited him to come here. If he does, that will say a lot about his personality.
      "Turning is for nascar." - Cosmo34
      "Think big or you will be small."
      "You can't think and hit at the same time." - Yogi Berra

      Comment


      • #4
        T & GoC, thanks for posting this information. Very nice!
        Last edited by GroundUp; 07-17-2008, 10:14 AM.

        Comment


        • #5
          FWIW Jim is on record saying Richard is dead on with lower body stuff, but no much with the upper. However he might better like the newer terms as swivel was not something I think he really grasped.

          In any case he still believes the front shoulder is pulling the knob, and the elbows changing position is what's flattening the bat.

          One of the HR Derby clips (Uggla?) showed a bat still somewhat cocked with the back elbow in tight already and the front not moving much more, and he gets it flat through the zone anyway.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Pronk View Post
            FWIW Jim is on record saying Richard is dead on with lower body stuff, but no much with the upper. However he might better like the newer terms as swivel was not something I think he really grasped.

            In any case he still believes the front shoulder is pulling the knob, and the elbows changing position is what's flattening the bat.

            One of the HR Derby clips (Uggla?) showed a bat still somewhat cocked with the back elbow in tight already and the front not moving much more, and he gets it flat through the zone anyway.
            pronk, he views it differently then we do. Here is what he said:

            Originally posted by jbooth
            Connor,

            I've been saying that on the internet since 2003. I have had HUGE ugly arguments every season about this with Nyman, Englishbey, and others, and RICHARD who once was in their camp. He bashed me every season, every time the subject came up. Now, he revises his belief and says what I have said all along, and acts like he discovered something. You can search BBF and eteamz and find posts I have made numerous times stating that I believe it is absolutely false that you rotate around the front leg. Hell, Richard was calling me a fool regarding that just 6 months ago on eteamz. Now, he states what I believe, and acts like he's a hero, and then uses it as a bashing tool against the PCR guys. He used to believe as they do. I argued with him about it often.

            I've had long, drawn out, heated debate with Steve and MarkH about how the legs turn the torso.

            Pretty soon Richard will finally figure out that I'm right about how the upper body works, and then he'll revise his thinking and somehow spin it like it was what he meant all along. Just as he's doing with this lower half stuff. I've ALWAYS said that you don't move from the middle, and you don't rotate around the front leg.

            Jim
            and then this after I invited him to teach us the truth:

            Originally posted by jbooth
            You've got it backwards. Richard finally came around to agreeing with me. I have always believed it was this way. He only recently came to see what I have said for years, was correct.

            And, Hell will freeze over before I come to hi.com.

            He would have to pay ME (a lot) to come to his site. I sure as heck am not paying even a nickel to join into his group of morons. I wouldn't go there even if it was free.

            I'm going to ask him why he can't accept that richard finally is coming around..... etc.

            just think if he came here...... imagine what the pcr spies would do.... imagine BM?
            "Turning is for nascar." - Cosmo34
            "Think big or you will be small."
            "You can't think and hit at the same time." - Yogi Berra

            Comment


            • #7
              Good lead post on this thread Rich. Great job!

              I believe Rich did revise his belief. BUT HELL, he had it wrong when he was in the PCR camp. He found the truth and Jim wants to bash him for it. Why? What does Jim want him to do continue to be a .175 hitter when he can make some adjustments and changes and become a .300 hitter.

              Jim, has a huge ego and he is letting it get in his way. He so wants credit. Credit for something he did not invent or discover. The procedure has been around for many many years. I know Jim wants everyone to believe he taught Babe Ruth how to hit but the bottom line is that Rich would tell Jim he had it wrong and found the truth.

              Rich has not claimed to be the inventor. What Rich has done is share his journey to the "grail". Jim's problem is that Rich just doesn't mention Jim in his journey to the truth.

              If we were to get the Charter Members of this site with Jim in a facility. Jim would change his belief of the upper body mechanics much like rich changed his lower body. Problem is Jim doesn't have as valuable a vested interest as Rich did and does. A son swinging the bat and competing. There is nothing that drives a Dad more than to help his son be as good as he can be.

              I'll go in the fox hole with Rich any day of the week. He has done a great job with this site and Jim deserves NO FREE RIDE!
              The HANDS and the HIPS DRIVE the Swing! The SHOULDERS are along for the ride.

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