How Do You Describe This Rear Arm and Hand Action?

[Teacherman]

As you study....don't let the barrel path fool you. Watch the hand and arm.



When does this rear arm action occur, relative to the hips? First.....Last.....Same Time?

Is your answer based on "feel".....or "look"?

Does the rear arm extend? Or is it extended by the momentum that is created?

What determines where the ball is struck within this extension?

What REALLY sets the plane of these swings?

Can you stay "behind the ball" with any kind of lead arm pulling action, whether pulled by the arm itself or by it's connection to the lead shoulder?

[Teacherman]

Compare these hitters to those above.

[Teacherman]

I can't imagine a worse "teach" than to teach a circular hand path.

While you can not avoid the turn the hands make as the body rotates.....to teach that path as something hitters need or attempt to do is pure hogwash.

The correct hand path is VERY linear. The lead arm has no role in that path....it simply responds to/supports the action of the rear arm/hand.

EXPERIMENT: Load by pushing the hands back by using the lead arm. Then load by pulling the hands back by using the rear arm. Compare.

[go cardinals]

Slow this clip down of chipper, and your actually see that the hands move rearward before the shoulders rotate, and before the front leg hits the ground.

http://hittingillustrated.com/library/Chipper7.gif

Hell, watch these as well:

http://hittingillustrated.com/library/Chipper2.gif
http://hittingillustrated.com/library/CLee4.gif

Watch how his hands go before his torso:
http://hittingillustrated.com/library/AJones5.gif

[tom.guerry]

turning the shoulders and pulling the lead arm are usually terrible cues if you want the MLB/hands and hips/upper body resistance/control pattern.

the rear arm actin to me should feel just like winding up to throw, but rather than symmetric arm action, the alternating arm actin you establish by push pull on handle and back and forth shift/carry of weight on feet.

then IF you focus on the 2 fulcrums - 1 legged hitting/back hip/sit, and handle torque, the upper body/hands will make things happen


pull with lead arm or CHP or handpath hook/pull hands to bellybuton all force the late batspeed/alligator arms/pull off ball/disconnect to hit outside/nonsquare/spinhook/PCR/bend over butt out/front hip pivot/etc/etc

yuk

[Teacherman]

Bonds' rear arm "punch" is 100% accurate, IMO, when descrbing the arm action of the best hitters.....but you must understand how to load it right.....and where it must be launched from.

The act of extending at the rear elbow is part of a punch. It is part of Bonds swing. And it also accelerates the barrel. Where contact is made within that extention is not super relevant. Timing and pitch location will play a large part in determining that. Where the ball is hit 'within the extension' is part of the timing window.

Watch the clips above. Watch the rear hand and arm....not the barrel. Chart their path. Then watch what the "load switching to unload" does to the barrel...without hand action. Then look for the second engine as the punch occurs. Bonds simply delivers a body blow.

It makes for the shortest, quickest, easiest timed, deepest hitting swing. It allows the swing to be launched without the use of the lead shoulder. There is definately a back side upper body/arm initiation to the swing.....the punch. And the already in motion hips join the already in progress punch just at the right time. The airport people mover effect.

The lead arm does little but support the rear arm action.

And.....I believe rear arm action....as compared to hand action....must be included when describing the high level upper body. Jack Mankin's "oar lock" loosely describes the lead arms role.

I believe the full tip n rip....as compared to the concise second engine.....is misunderstood and misapplied. It falls into the 'I think more is better but is actually worse' category.

The punch is clearly visible in Manny and Howard.



You must try this. You will have to experiment with your loading....but basically just load to throw a punch to the body with your rear hand....set the bat accordingly. KAPOW.

More later.

[Teacherman]

What action describes Chippers launch?



The people mover is in action....the lower body running start.....the stretch creation....then he steps onto it (joins the people mover) when he throws his punch. The punch...the upper body...initiates the swing....from the rear.....joining the already in progress lower body.

You can not launch a quality swing with any kind of lead arm dominance or action. The only way to keep the bat at the rear shoulder for launch is with proper rear arm loading and launch.

The hands do go "to the ball". The hand path is not circular. It is linear. Point A to B. Do not be fooled by the body's rotation and how it effects the hand path. The hand action itself....is linear. To slot the rear elbow....then get on plane with the lead arm...then swing in the circular path is hogwash....nonsense. Front hip joint rotation is total bull sh*t.

The swing plane is set by the rear hand/arm.

[Teacherman]

The punch "torques the handle" at "go". The rear hand/arm when punching is applying pressure perp to the handle...not down it's length....at initiation. That has to be the quickest possbile swing.

The lead arm initiators can not do that. They can only pull the knob.

Lead armers HAVE to drag the bat.

When time is critical....like in hitting....super critical....how can lead armers (namely "hands are along for the ride" guys) expect to do anything but drag the bat when they pull the knob forward for a couple of frames BEFORE they send the barrel to the zone. Try timing that to a quality pitcher.

A high level hitter's barrel is arcing to the ball immediately.

You must torque the handle....apply pressure perp to the handle....at "go".

The punch puts it all together.

[Teacherman]

Has someone saved the clip of Bond's desribing his punching action? I saw it recently on BBF I believe.

Please post it if you have it.

[tom.guerry]

i like to teach/learn with a full tip and rip and matching full stride action like 2 piece/click back or big front leg lift.

then you can feel where the punch needs to go and trim things down later keeping it comfortable effective.

barry from buster's site;

http://www.swingbuster.com/images/Ba...onds%20Clip.rm



read donny talking about the HBH and the punching positin

http://www.eteamz.com/baseball/board...cfm?id=1335073


donny:

" You can't punch unless you get to that center point of gravity or get your foot down. I'm here( in this post stride position) to make a decision.
)...I don't need to stride or anything from this punching position to really torque my hips and make contact or drive the ball out of the ball park"

MLB players talk about what they feel to help others hit better. For kids sometimes they must get complete separation to accentuate a better hip turn or the linear momentum will blow them past this critical point. U of GA does a stop and go drill everyday where they get the player to load his hands back and stride and then they soft toss the ball. The HBH is smoother and puts the ball there much quicker than that and in the same place each time. Furthermore ...its FUN and you will come home from work and they will have an hour swings in before you arrive...the way it used to be when we did not have Game Boys.

I am interested in this topic. It goes to the core of hitting ...maybe even power vs contact and of a Bonds that can get the foot down soft and early without much stride momentum and hit for power too.

How the front foot lands and when IS important. The ability to store coiled energy and lessen the requirement for stride( linear) momentum is key to keeping the head still and read/ time pitches. You find some that move back to foward more ( ARod) and others coil to uncoil more ( Bonds). The later maybe times pitches better...I don't know

Core strength and rotary power are lofty goals for player wanting to be able to turn into the pitch without much stride momentum to uncock the hips.

If they threw the same speed everytime...Happy Gilmore would lead the leagu

[tom.guerry]

i like the people mover analogy.

when builder checks in, he might comment two plane golf feel. the 2 plane golf swing has a 1-2-3 tempo where 1 is the back swing and two is the transition which is like what we call "rotate into toe touch" or hips leading hands which is putting things on strecth in preparatin for the upper bdy punch controlling go. the lower body then responds however it needs to depending on the swing the hands have picked.

you need the one legged/back hip thrust action to make this work.

this is set up by stepping in to load the back hip with all the weight on the back leg, then sitting/bending the body as necessary to keep the muscles stretching loading until the punch.

2 plane golf is similar except in golf what dominates is the "swing down" of the arms with very little handle torque/grip using hands togteher mainly as hinge only. this action in golf is important because the very little torque/mostly hinge action is what automatically sqares the clubface thorugh contact if you swing on plane.

in hitting, you throw/"punch" primarily with the forearm action after having set up the push/pull/torquing rhythm at the handle as you wind the rubberband/rotate into toe touch.

in baseball, there is no clubface to worry about sqaring, insted you want to match the swing plane to the pitch to enhance the chance of squaring the ball at contact as much as possible.

in golf, to FEEL how the clubface autmatically wants to close as long as you swing the club on plane with a more oure hinge action at the grip, go out and find somene who will let you swing their "GYRO SWING"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eFFUm...eature=related

[Pronk]

I really can't help but look at the lead arm on these guys getting some pretty good extension. Could that give the appearance of shoulder rotation powering things? If you have to get in the flip the bird or gut punch position and you largely don't change much in the lead arm, once you load, and bring the hands through in a linear fashion the shoulder has to clear.

Also Andrew wanted to look at these pics to see how they swivel.

First Pedroia, front and side, and one other thing I like about him is how long he holds the cock'd hips:


Utley:


Finally a side of Josh Hamilton:

[Teacherman]

Don't confuse what the lead arm "looks" like with what it is doing.

To get to the loaded rear arm punch position, the lead arm will extend. But what is doing the work? The rear arm is pulling.....loading.....rearward, IMO. The lead arm is not pushing rearward. Since both hands are on the bat, the lead arm is effected. What is doing the work to load will do the work to unload.

If your lead arm is pushing rearward...causing a load at the lead shoulder.....then the lead shoulder/arm will do the unload work. That is a killer.

If your rear arm is pulling rearward to load....causing a load at the rear shoulder....then the rear shoulder and rear arm will do the unload work.

In either case.....the appearance is very similar.

What I look for to tell the difference is where the handle torque is. IF the lead shoulder/arm is loading the handle torque will be late....at contact. IF the rear shoulder/arm is loading the handle torque is immediate.

Another good indicator is the rear elbow protruding behind the hitter like you see in the pitcher view of Pedroia. It isn't always visible. But you can extend the lead arm easily without moving that elbow behind you. Lead arm extension can send the entire hand unit toward the umpire. Here is Utley from the side. I see his rear arm loading...and the lead arm responding to what the rear arm is doing.



Duncan, Hardy, J Jones, Lowell, Hunter....in the swings above....all have a degree of knob pull before they torque the handle. They are dragging the bat compared to the greats. Also notice you don't see their rear elbows behind them.

This rear arm action is further proof, IMO, that the shoulders are bypassed. Just like the "look" of the linear hand path is skewered by the rotating body....(it looks circular)......so is the "look" of the rear arm action and shoulder action skewered.

[Teacherman]

Pedroia's swivel is easily seen, IMO. He is not a tip n ripper. He uses a concise Second Engine swivel. When the bat gets to just the right position....which is lowered....flatter....but still back at the armpit.....he turns it as he punches.

Hamilton is pretty much a full fledged tip n ripper.....although he does it differently than most. His hands are still out over the plate as he turns it. Bonds, Vlad and Pujols pull the hands back in to the arm pit to turn it over

[Pronk]

Rich if you follow me for a minute I've had trouble with my little one popping up a lot this year and the lead arm extension thing has led me to theorize (scary). I compared him to another 10 year old kid I am carrying who listens to me pretty well and is freaking everyone out as one of the top 5 home run hitters in the league (mostly 12's). Anyway besides the kid outweighing my son by 15-20 lbs. he tends to hit more balls squarely, whereas mine gets under a lot of balls. Besides my son having contact way in front it dawned on me when comparing the two that mine doesn't get the hands "back" enough and considering the downward trajectory of the ball explains why he makes a lot of contact but just under the ball.

By the way the kid who's cranking the ball, this wasn't a great swing as you can see he kind of circles the hands a bit, but I think his stronger LOAD gives him a chance to hit the ball deeper during Unload. He hits some tape measured shots for a kid his age.

I tried launching from the position my son is in and felt how I could also come under the ball and hit it too far in front.

My son is on the left. Maybe pulling back a little with the top hand would be better, but hands need to free up some here. Personally if you preset the angle between the rear forearm and bicep and then pull back a little to load, I can't see the harm in that.



When I think of pre-setting the angle I think of Rowand.
Side view:


Front view of same shot (see the back elbow)