The Evolution Of The Swivel

[Teacherman]

EVOLUTION OF THE SWIVEL

HOW DID THEY LEARN TO SWIVEL SINCE IT WASN'T TAUGHT TO THEM

LEAD ARM PULL.....BACK ARM PUSH.....BOTH.....ROTATION.....CONNECTION.....SEPA RATION.....RUNNING START.....WEIGHT SHIFT.....OVERLAP

If you're like me, and have studied video extensively, and have been around the game a long time, an interesting subject always comes up when explaining the high level pattern. How did the high level hitters learn to do what they do? It is clear that most weren't taught the high level pattern. So how did they get to where they are today. And more specifically, I'm going to concentrate on the swivel. The turning of the barrel rearward at "go".

The following is just a theory. It may follow your experience. It may not. Feel free to add your thoughts below. I am by no means offering this as proof of how it developed. This would fall in my "best guess" category.

Let's start with 10-12 year old kids. There appears to be three categories. THE NATURAL, who unknowingly used his body right the first time he picked up a bat, had success and because of that success (and no one coached him out of it) he continued using the high level pattern. We won't concern ourselves with the natural.

The other two categories include the LEAD ARM PULLER, who does just what it says. And the REAR ARM PUSHER, again, who does just what it says. The choice may have to do with their dominant hand, although that doesn't explain a righty thrower who bats left and vice versa.

The Puller is not usually a stong upper body kid. He may have some success at the lower levels but as he goes up the playing ladder, he quickly realizes his bat is dragging. He's too slow.

The Pusher is usually a strong upper body kid. He may also have success at lower levels but soon realizes he pushes himself out of the zone and can't make consistent solid contact. He's too quick.

At that level of play, both kids might just hit the crap out of the ball but suffer from inconsistency. Pitching is not doing it to them. They are doing it to themselves.

So from that starting point, the first need is consistency and the first evolution step is the COMBO. You combine the two. The puller adds the push. The pusher adds the pull. The puller has less pull but substitutes more push. The pusher has less push but substitutes more pull. You end up with the push/pull, somewhere near 50/50 each. The pull, mostly by the lead arm, of both hands forward, combined with the push into contact, by the "hammering motion" (not a swivel) of the top hand, late in the swing. The Combo could also be called the BM. We know this is disconnection. Just an arm swing. But the hitter isn't being taxed physically yet and gets by with it.

This works well for awhile. But as they approach high school, that pitching just gets faster and faster AND they are now changing speeds and breaking pitches off. The hitter has a sudden need for adjustability. Both in handling speeds and handling locations. His need changes from consistency to adjustability. He may or may not consciously know this, but the body says "if I was quicker, I could wait longer, and make better decisions". So, the hitter works on his body mechanics. He works at ROTATION. Using the hips better. Even lifting weights. Trying to increase his body's quickness. The problem is, good hip rotation with disconnection is a band aid. He gets some mileage out of it but he soon learns that won't cut it.

Next he evolves into CONNECTION. Trying to make sure that the new energy found in the new and improved hip rotation reaches the barrel. It's probably found by trial and error. Maybe by emulation. But this step reverses the push/pull step. You can't do both and have success. You can't have connection and disconnection. So, he's quicker, as a result of the new hip rotation, but he has to become a lead arm puller, to maintain connection, in order to deliver the body's energy to the barrel. The push of the push/pull has to go. So....a dilemma. He's quicker. But he's lost his adjustability. He can hit the crap out of a ball that he's "on", but he just can't get "on" often enough. He faces two options. Drag it. Or pull off.

Some where around this time, in his dealing with his problem, he learns SEPARATION of the upper and lower body. Maybe he "gets it" from his throwing. Maybe he just trial and errs long enough and stumbles onto it. But the separation leads to a new level of quickness. The new level of launch quickness helps immensely. But, that pitching, man, it just keeps getting faster and faster. It is REALLY fast now. No matter how quick he is from "go", he just can't get there consistently. And, that adjustability is still an issue.

So, he thinks he needs to get going sooner. He needs a RUNNING START. He needs to start without starting. He needs to start without yet committing. So, through trial and error, he learns to "carry forward". He learns to develop some momentum. This helps a lot. He has already broken inertia and now can swing when he needs to.

But, that pitching. How good can they get?

So, through more trial and error and/or emulation, he learns to WEIGHT SHIFT into 'go'. He already has the momentum of a running start. Now he suddenly energizes the swing by the sudden shift of weight from back to front at "go". A rear leg action. A rear leg push. He comes out of a knee bend. He feels it. He says "this is good". And he learns about that last little bit of stretch he gets as the weight shifts suddenly. This last little bit of stretch happens AS the hands are going rearward. Ala Jeff Kent. The separation has moved from just the upper body versus lower body, to the hands versus the hips. This is his first "feel" of two pivot points. The barrel begins to float rearward as he works on this weight shift. As he works on the two pivot points. As he learns to prepare to make it happen that barrel begins to float.

Suddenly, he "feels" the OVERLAP. He feels how the two pivot points work together to create one move. He feels the benefit of weight back then shift at "go". He learns to "ride the back leg". He learns to maintain the rear hip load AND the posture that is over the rear leg. He learns to create one move that has two directions, (hands going one way, hips going the other) although he couldn't tell you that. He wants to use the hands. And he wants to use the hips. They are going in opposite directions. Because that separation between the hands and the hips occurs, it becomes natural to swivel from that position. He thinks he's doing that old pushing move. The hammering move. But, from that new position, the rear hip pivot point forward of the hands position, that he has learned to achieve, that old pushing move isn't really the old pushing move. It's the swivel. His body has overlapped. It's into a brand new position that allows or creates a need to swivel. It's OK. There is no reason to fight it. Because their is no power outage. That overlap feeling 'feels' powerful. That 'stretch and fire' position 'feels' more than adequate before it happens. Therefore, he doesn't need too much from the hands. Just what they can offer. And, what do they offer. Early batspeed and high adjustability. A rearward arc that allows deep contact. He is happy. Very happy. He has solved ALL of his problems. The dilemma disappears.

He gets called up to the bigs, hits for average with many HR's, the chicks love the long ball, life is wonderful.

[Teacherman]

Yes, I've probably oversimplified some things. And some things may happen in different order. But, I know the trial and error process, actively pursued, with no guardrails, will lead you to positions and thoughts and cues that you wouldn't otherwise achieve/find. From those positions, things are likely to "feel" different than they "look".

So a hitter who has never heard the word swivel, in fact, swivels.

[Teacherman]

HG's question was regarding the swivel and whether it is an active move or a by-product of the "ride the back leg....shift at "go" move.

Here is what I offered.

You would agree that the hand action we see in Kent, Ortiz, Manny ect. is a bi-product of good upper/lower body separation with the upper going back as the lower is opening, correct?

I want to say yes. I think it is more than a by-product....but I understand what you're saying.

So...yes.

A better question is, when Brandon changed his swing from the left swing to the right swing, was it the change in separation and the riding the back hip that did this?

I'm not sure what you're asking....did what? Change his handset? Make his swivel occur? Make it better?

I believe the swivel is better in the left clip. So is the separation. It's just from a different angle.

Am I missing your point?

But.....there is no question that our understanding of riding the back leg, our understanding of the two pivot points, which was happening in both of those clips....left and right....but we didn't understand it at the time, is HUGE when it comes to the swivel.

That rear hip control of the lower body...riding the back leg is big. Makes the swivel better.

It is very difficult to swivel properly with weight forward. And the hand action of Kent AS the lower turns forward greatly enhances that barrel fall which puts it in a better position to swivel.

But, then you have someone like Bonds who I believe swivels from the tipped position. Maybe not the most extreme tipped position....but close.

Download this clip and hold down the forward arrow key to make it play faster.



Tell me where you think his swivel starts.

Then you have Chipper who lets the barrel fall a little....a product of riding the back leg....it gets to a much easier position to swivel from.....then he swivels.

Then you have Ortiz....who swivels without much preswing barrel action. He swivels from up high with a more normal rear elbow move.



And Manny and Howard....who launch from the extreme high elbow position....by firing the elbow into the swivel....what I call the "plunger" move.....the down and through that we've talked about.



Then you have Hamilton....hands low and out over the plate.



In ALL cases...IMO....that hands swivel through....yet they are each different.

Does a long clip filled answer make me look smart?

Just kidding.

The relationship between the two pivot points is HUGE. I think the best hitters learn that relationship....unknowingly. But it feels right when they find it and they memorize it.

I would bet they figure out the 'ride the back leg' first. And everything they do stems from that.

That is why they never speak of the swivel. They speak of their hands all the time. But they never say swivel or anything close to that.

Yet.....from the position they get into....the rear hip joint controlled lower body position....the ride....the swivel comes natural to them.

Let me know if I answered your question.

[go cardinals]

I was an example of the old high level pattern. I used to swivel... I checked out my swing from when I was 10. I got it coached right out of me... down on the ball... etc... however, I was an exception. I noticed every home run I hit or good swing... it felt different. I was doing something I couldn't grasp. Coaches tried to make me stop it, but whatever I was doing, I kept doing it only on good swings when I was in the perfect zone... I think it may have been some sort of swivel. I am not sure though. Then, I came up to the big field... I couldn't hit! I was early... really early... so, I tried to re-work my swing. All I knew at the time was to squish the bug, hit down on the ball etc... Then the next fall (fall of 06) I started to hit the S*** out of the ball. I had a long swing... I just rotated my shoulders. I hit great in practice, but come game time, I pulled off everything. I hit .726 that fall in 10 or so games. 2 hits of mine were solid contact. One was off the fence and the other was a homer. Every other swing I could not hit it squared. I may have been a I was a "pusher" as you call it... I would just muscle the ball and hit it far... I also used my quick core. So the next spring (07), I got off to a good start. I was hitting with poor mechanics though, and I knew it. I hit great, but I struck out too much. I knew I needed to be more natural, but I didn't know what to do. In the middle of the season, I made a discovery that has changed my life forever. I went from swinging... to knowing what the pro's do and emulating it. I had emulated the pro's a lot, but now I go good analysis. I was doing a french homework assignment one night... somehow (no idea how) I came across Chris O'leary's hitting site. He posted a link to BBF on there... the rest you guys know. Here I am now. I'm 15 lbs bigger (grew 10lbs this week), and I am back to hitting the S*** out of the ball. I hit bp today and yesterday (didn't have camera). Hit a couple of bombs. Really hard though, because the fence it really far. With the info from here, I am back to doing something natural... I don't know what... but it works. I think only about hands... I just use my hands (naturally torque I think... never filmed vs. live pitching), and everything else comes into place.


For a while there when I was 12... I was a pusher...

[go cardinals]

I'll add:

Overall, I basically taught myself to hit through trial and error. The sad thing though is whenever I got "it"... coaches would try to take it away from me. That is why I'm here right now. I am determined to get it back.

[tom.guerry]

go-

Chipper is another one who breaks the stride into pieces which can be a good way to feel the sequence.

Very few of them load into the back hip as well as Babe Ruth with his carryover from pitching.

[tom.guerry]

Richard-

You lead this thread off with the best post of the year --- so far !

Thanks.

[Teacherman]

Thanks Tom

We all know the trial and err process can be lengthy.

IMO....the significance of the above theory is that IF the hitter knows what he's looking for in the beginning....the two pivot points....the overlap and swivel....he will find it much sooner.

In fact.....I believe it is possible to get immediate improvement even though it won't be perfect. By immediate improvement I mean game results....yet some inconsistency.

And with practice the search is shortened and the hitter can "get this" much quicker than described above. That process went from 10-12 years old to professional. Somewhere along that line the hitter "got it".

I believe knowing the goal in the beginning can shorten this tremendously.

First step.......remove ALL guardrails. Slow it down....load longer than you swing....significanlty. Work to achieve the overlap position instead of a swing. From there the swing will be natural.

[tom.guerry]

richard -

I think the typical baseball progression before the PCR invasion was the pull with body, drag the arms like the kid Epstein liked with the elbows WAY ahead of the hands, then you eliminate this by turnig like heck AND extending hands/knob to ball (with excessive/wrong arm action).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5lM6KjryEvI

THEN you jump to MLB with secondengine/swing down/diagonal/2 plane which requires shoulder tilt/bypass to stop turning like heck.

this lets you segment/stretch and fire instead of spin

or you can take the long,sad PCR/spinhook detour to Florida.

[YHF]

First step.......remove ALL guardrails. Slow it down....load longer than you swing....significanlty. Work to achieve the overlap position instead of a swing. From there the swing will be natural.

Richard, what should the hitter be trying to "feel" in the overlap position? Should he try to feel the rear knee starting while the hands are still loading? Or perhaps just feeling a stretch through his torso from the lower body being a little open while the upper body is a little closed?

Thanks.

[Teacherman]

I try to explain the feel of many things but this one is tough.



These two clips show the proper action. A little exaggerated for visual effect....to make sure you see it.

Initially the hands are turning the barrel rearward. Initially the hips are opening as part of the running start. These actions are opposite initially. But there comes a point when the barrel's arc is at it's furthest rearward point, or approaching it, and the rear hip joint pivot point is the "pedestal" upon which everything sits.....with the hips very open and opening. Stretch is creating and approaching max. The front foot is up in the air, the rear leg is supporting the entire body, and the pivoting that is going on in the rear hip joint AND the swiveling of the hands ARE IN THE SAME DIRECTION. They have joined. They have gone from opposite.....to.....far enough around their individual arcs to be the "same arc". This position involves a spatial alignment of the hips ahead of the hands......the Jeff Kent move we frequently discuss here. the action of the hands loading rearward AS the lower body running start begins.



This position is identical to the position throwers get into just before they "go". On TV tonight watch the hip action of the pitchers....how they overlap around their hip as their arm action does it's thing. Then suddenly the hip action and the arm action are in the same direction.

Poor throwers rush and never get to the point of overlap. Poor hitters rush and never get there also.

You must learn to get to the proper position....the position of overlap....and then the swing becomes easy. To do this you must use the 'wait' time effectively.

I consistently watch Yadier Molina.....the Cards catcher......a GREAT thrower who does not know how to apply what he does throwing to his hitting. He consistently "cuts off" his overlap, just before he gets there, and pushes or pulls the barrel with his hands. I'm craving the opportunity to work with him.



Notice how Yadi's arm circles up behind him as his hips open when he throws. He is overlapping. Yet, when he hits his barrel isn't allowed to arc, let alone complete the arc. He rushes.....cuts it off.....raises his hands....then pulls/pushes hard to the ball. He uses his hands/arms only with slight momentum from the lower body.

When you overlap you get a "torsion spring" like connected rotation that drives the swing/throw. When you don't you aren't getting the complete benefit of the body.

Turning the barrel rearward, early in the process, during the wait time, a slight barrel float, and then the proper timing of the two pivot points and Yadi is an Allstar catcher with a .300 BA and 25 HR's per year.

[Teacherman]

I can not overstress the "freedom" that the rear hip pivot point needs. It is imperative that it can "move toward the ball" as it pivots.

This freedom establishes the "direction" of the swing. The "direction" of the rotation. It plays a huge part in getting the already rotating barrel "lined up with" the pitch.

On an outside pitch it will move toward the outside corner as it comes up and through. On an inside pitch it can quickly move inside. It doens't move a lot. But the freedom it needs to move slightly....to adjust the swing arc and roation "into" the ball is significant to reaching your power potential.



Watch the rear hip "freedom" of Carlos Guillen.

The old adage that the hips don't rotate as fully on an outside pitch as they do on an inside pitch is kind of true. True if you believe "rotation" adequately describes what is going on.

I do not. The pivoting of the rear hip pivot point, with it's freedom to adjust direction, is what the action really is.

[Teacherman]

Another thought.

Overlap occurs....or wants to occur....when you keep the weight back over/onto the rear leg AS you create forward momentum with the stride.

IF you keep the weight back....and do not allow it to shift until "go'.....you will be forced to open the hips....your COG will lower......the lower body running start begins......and you reach the position from which you can overlap if you're using your hands/upper body correctly.

IF you allow the weight to shift to the front leg during the forward momentum.....before "go".....you won't overlap.

[Teacherman]

And an even simpler thought.

Sit on that rear hip joint.....feel that hip joint.....load it......control that rear hip joint.....ride that rear hip joint.....do not shift weight from it until you commit.....push upward as you "go"......I bet you will want to overlap.

[pointnumberone]

To me, the overlap/stretch/cusp feels like there's a rope tied to my front leg with someone pulling on it, pulling my front hip open. Riding the back leg builds resistance/tension in the back hip needed to power the swing. When commitment is made, the weight shift off the back leg feels like a "releasing" of energy that allows the back hip to fire up and forward.