? for Cut Three

[Shep]

Cut Three,
The other night I was reading thru Teacherman's original post about the second engine on Shawn's website. I ran across this post by you:

"People can laugh all they want at Virg and his Web site, and I have read silently for a few years now on this and other sites that they have been.

But he has been teaching kids for years to keep the bat in front of the body and rotate the barrel with the forearms.

Dr. Mike Marshall, who has a well-developed hitting training program and was a Double-A All-Star as shortstop before converting to pitching, also teaches pronating and supinating in batting. He calls it force coupling.

Neither gives much credence to what they consider to be a recent overemphasis on body rotation and posture. It's my impression, and I have spoken to both, is that they figure those aspects just follow the barrel, which is acted on by the opposiing forces of the hands.

Virg taught me a trick that makes the lead forearm pronation go sonic. At that point I stopped thinking ever again about body rotation. Why bother? I know how to rotate the business end of the bat. It feel slike hands ahead of hips, which is of course impossible, but it feels that way."

http://z6.invisionfree.com/Hitting/i...opic=355&st=45


Can you share that trick?

Thanks,
Shep

[tom.guerry]

Shep --

Thanks for digging up that thread. Most of it is all there. A great walk down memory lane.

This was soon after Richard had his epiphany and the he started his own site.

It's been 1 1/2 years and the posse are still in denial. This is when they really went to the mattresses in panic mode for the first time and they have tried to remain in denial ever since while trying to figure out how to revise/how to take credit and continue to use Stock as a poster boy.

All the stuff by Richard and Donny and DMAC is worth reviewing.

Some highlights.

.......................................

Richard to DMAC:

"The players that move the barrel to a position outside the helmet (in front) during the load are power hitters."

DMAC: "Amen

"Sadahara Oh

"It is one of the main reasons that they are power hitters. They don't have to be big and strong, they just have to make the right move, and Oh was a prime example."

..................


DMAC among other things encouraged Stock to tip and rip and also note how he recognizes that the running start is very similar in throwing/Maddox.

DMAC:

"You fellows have kind of lost me. For me, the bat quickness helped by the hands (arms) comes from the running start. The running start comes from tipping the bat and then letting it rip with the hands without stopping to set the bat.........just going from the time the bat reaches it's farthest point in the tip. Here are some clips starting with Ruth and working the way up to the guys of today like Bonds, Guerrero, Soriano and the young teenager Robert Stock.

"When they tip it forward, they go from there.....they don't start, and then set their hands and then have to start again. Much like the running start I have yapped about with maddux for years

"What he is doing is getting more batspeed with less effort.......a running start. It does not need to be explained to a kid at all......just tell him to get his hands away from the body a little, point the bat at the sky, tip it towards the pitcher and then let it rip. If he asks why, you respond by telling him he will hit the ball a lot farther. When he does, there won't be any need to talk about pronation or whatever. If he can't do it, then there won't be any need to talk about pronation or whatever, because it won't matter.

"About 99% of all guys in the big leaguers were not taught the swing. They just found it along the way through emulation, feel or just blind luck. The clip of Williams is great, because he was 48 years old when it was shot and he is ripping the ball and laughing. He is also tipping the bat and then letting it rip. He is also the best hitter who ever walked and had dozens of instructors telling people that he was just a freak and that you should not copy him. They say the same thing about Bonds today, and the only guy who was smart enough to copy him was Robert Stocks dad, and it is paying off. He copies Bond's running start and the kid can hit balls a long way. Everyone else does not copy it because they think it is too hard to do. Mr Oh hit 868 dingers,was 5' 10, weighed 165 and nobody paid attention to his swing in the USA either.

"Last year in September, I saw the Mariners play a 6 game home series and every day I was there early to watch BP. Outside of Richie Sexon who is 6'9", Ichiro hits the ball farther than anyone on that club. He bangs ball after ball off the restaurant in right field which is about 410 ft away. In BP he tips the bat and lets it rip. He is 5'9" and about 160 lbs. In games he does not do it, because with his 3.6 speed, he was taught at a young age to take advantage of it.

"If your kids can run like Ichiro, then they can be dead hands slap hitters, but if they can't, then they better hit like Molitor, Olerud or Brett or better yet, learn to tip it and rip it and they may hit enough home runs and doubles to make their High School coach really like them.

"If you are built like Frank Thomas, you don't need to tip it either. Ted Williams once said that if he could work with Thomas that Frank would hit 80 home runs every year. It never happened.

"Timing it for a good athlete is not hard, what has happened is that nobody has taught it to anybody. What is really hard is setting your bat behind your shoulder, go from a dead start and then expect rotation to bring the bat around and magically hit the ball. That has been taught to many kids.......good luck"


..............

Donny Buster

"What is at stake for teaching is if when you believe there is a rotation center there, will the whole body work to load it and unload it learning proper rotation naturally that is built around it. I would say it certainly can in players that have this deficit. My next door neighbors 7 year old responded to it right out of the box too for what that is worth"



........................

I tried to explain this in a way Donny liked to chief posse proaganda officer/logician fungo johnston:

Tom to Greg:"The "running start" is in one direction. The hips turn in another. The result is to slingshot the bat quickly (by upper working vs lower to create cusp) in a plane that compresses the ball well (good direction of momentum).The hands are the site of control of the timing and direction "function" of the upper body/running start and the lower body support it demands."

Still in denial.



This is also when the Posse and resident (pseudo) "scientist" JJA were trying to continue to deny the existence of Mankin's THT. JJA is one confused guy.

He admits this running start is Mankin's THT:

JJA:
"Yes, Mankin would call that top hand torque"

JJA also finds himself in the LUDICROUS position of supporting both Nyman/PCR AND Lau JR.

LAu Jr's thing is fixing the Williams power swing which is in his opinion "too rotational" and "forcing one dimensionla pull hitters" who swing while striding with top hand dominance.

JJA:"Sorry to butt in here, but I did want to make a clarification on something Tom said. In Lau's lead arm pull, he absolutely, 100% emphasizes that the shoulders do not turn. That's the whole purpose of his "no-feet, no-shoulders" drill. As "linear" as many may find that drill (which emphasizes pulling with the hands while minimizing the shoulders, torso and hips), it is how Lau in essences teaches connection. As you well know, disconnection can occur when the shoulders turn too soon in the swing, not in synch with the lower body. Thus, at the end of such a swing, the batter is just waving at the ball with his hands, i.e. it's disconnected. So the lead arm pull emphasizes hands only, no shoulders at all. Just wanted to clarify."

At the same time, JJA is trying to defend PCR as the best/purest rotational swing that is making prior models obsolete and denying tht.

THEN, JJA tries to say it's a difficult thing/advanced technique only someone like Arod can handle and DMAC thankfully blows him out of the water.

JJA:"So I'm not trying to stunt future stars for you DMac, but I don't know how to teach a running start for a child who simply isn't a good enough athlete to do it. The John Olerud swing works better for the average athlete, and so unless the guy is super talented, the simplified Olerud swing is what I'm gunning for as a coach."

DMAC:"As far as A-Rod goes, I really believe that a running start is much easier for a hitter to time a pitch than a big leg lift and with him being such a great athlete he could have done both and succeeded.

"If you can teach a youngster how to hit a home run, you will make him and his parents happy. The running start IMO is easier to learn for a youngster than a high leg kick or good rotation and can provide some home runs for the average guy. I think where we may disagree is that I don't think that you have to be an above average athlete to learn how to do it.

"One of the very best at the running start was Mr. Oh, who hit about 868 home runs. My oldest son just sent me an e-mail clip of him hitting about 8-9 home runs, and if I can figure out how to post it I will. Maybe JJA or Teacherman can do it if I can e-mail them the clip.

"One more thought.....Oh is the only guy I can think of who had a huge knee pump and a running start.........he is a medium sized guy who also has the most home runs ever"

And "jalbert" is still in there trying to defend Nyman/PCR:

"I am sort of skimming through here but can someone explain how and/or why this is any different from the idea of changing the direction of the knob of the bat?"

Still in denial ?

[Pronk]

Memory lane alright.

I call this Richard's "Martin Luther" moment. Second Engine = 95 Theses.

The Reformation started with Teacherman, Donny, and Dmac coming together though all were seemingly opposed. Donny didn't change but Dmac and Teacherman were busy studying, while the rest of us were doing pole drills.

The only thing I hate about the original Second Engine thread is most of the links are gone. Obviously Dmac's site's down, and many other poster pics are missing or moved.

One thing I really miss because no Posse member would ever dare question Dmac was when Mark would say something like "Donny I never said your hand job can't work, but it's not absolute and not universal". Then Dmac would chime in with something like "Mark that's great that you approve since most of the great home run hitters in history tip the barrel". Then he post about 20 of them.

[Shep]

I read through that war while it was going on and obviously recently re-read it. That comment about Virg really has me curious though. Here is a link to his website and after reading through it, I can't imagine what he had to offer.

www.wristhitter.com