Toe Touch....or....Hip Load

[Teacherman]

More on the toetouch heeldrop nonsense.

What is most important in the launch position?



This is more video showing no relationship between the dropping of the heel from toe touch in regards to the launch of the swing. In this clip the toe and heel are down long before "go".

Another Epstein boo boo, IMO.

What does happen, consistently in ALL swings, is the load in the rear hip is maintained....the weight kept back....the linear push ready to happen......and at "go", the hips turn against the foot/leg, the load in the hip is unloaded and the weight shifts.

Not before.

WHEN "go" happens has everything to do with the pitch speed and nothing to do with toetouch/heeldrop.

High level hitters have learned to create a launch window....a period of time over which they can launch....early for the fastball....later for the offspeed pitches.....without degrading the swing. And this is all possible by the "weight back loaded rear hip/leg". Getting weight to the front foot so as to use the front leg as the axis of rotation (swinging gate) is simply another figment of the PCR imagination. The leg does assist. It just isn't the axis.

This launch window is formed by a continous lower body....rhythmic with no pause, no stall, no stop.....an airport people mover...continuously moving.....with launch governed by the hands. The hips clear during this continuous move...creating a path for the swing....and at decision the hands turn the barrel, the shoulders laterally tilt, and it all syncs up very nicely with the people mover......the hips. During the running start of the lower body....the stretch is created. If the pitch is offspeed you simply wait and get more stretch. You do not stall or stop the lower body. You put a longer "hold" on the upper body.

The axis is the ball and socket joint of the rear hip.



This angle shows how even though they carry forward....they drift forward....they do not let the weight get to the front foot before "go". Notice how much of their drift is not linear but "hip opening". That allows momentum without weight shift. If it was linear, they would have to eventually get the foot down for balance. But because it is "hip opening" they remain balanced over the rear leg. They ride the rear leg, maintain a load in the rear hip joint, and at "go" this lower body action syncs up quite nicely with the upper body Second Engine.

Go pushes the weight to that front leg.

[Pronk]

So I suppose it's safe to put "stay back" back into the vernacular?

[Slapper23]

Rich,

Was Epstein really saying heel drop is the GO move? He did talk about imagining a taut rope from the lead heel to the rear shoulder, and when the heel drops, the rear shoulder dips - tilt and turn. Does Epstein say this is the launch position? I think the clips in the center and right frames still satisfy Epstein's taut rope move. On the left, the hitter holds up/holds after seeing a change-up on the outside part of the plate, waits, and launches. In this change-up clip, he was already anticipating launching just after heel drop, was fooled, and still managed to drive the ball.

Also, I don't think Epstein says to fully commit your weight forward at heel drop. I agree with "riding the back leg" into rotation. The hitter above does this in each clip. GO or NOGO still doesn't happen until rotation/weight shift transfers weight to the front leg.

We have discussed this before and whether you say "swinging gate" or not, isn't the hitter still using the longest lever in the body - the lead leg - to rotate into and against, and using this lever to support energy transfer and momentum up into the upper torso? The front leg is blocking, posting up, resisting to make the energy transfer happen. The lead leg is still the axis of rotation, in this regard, just as a stiff flag rotates around an offset axis that is a flagpole. OK, maybe I'm reaching, but I'm thinking out loud here.

Mike

[Teacherman]

Unless he has changed, Epstein promoted a weight forward, on the front toe move, waiting for "go" from which you drop the heel.

I haven't read his stuff in a long time.....but my sons did this....for a while....and I didn't make it up. It came from him.

Yes, you rotate into the front leg for assistance, but hitters do not use it as the axis of rotation. The axis of rotation is the rear hip joint and everything gets thrown into the lead leg for blocking/assistance.

The reason this is important is "where is the weight" at go. The weight is back. And the shifting from back to forth at "go", not before, has a HUGE impact on the quality of the unload of the Second Engine.

IMO, for the front leg to be the axis...for a swinging gate to be possible....weight must be there first.....before "go". I don't see it that way.

[Callyjr]

Weight forward at toe or heel drop?

Epstein says land the front foot with toe up at 60/40 weight on the front. Then he says to throw the heel to the ground to start the rubber band unwinding while resisting the upper body, but not go. The weight is mostly centered not back. through out the swing.

boo boo or not it seems to work, or maybe just you mis-understanding or just wanting to throw out another dig at someone to make yourself feel better?

[Teacherman]

[tom.guerry]

I think Epstein has very good "cues" and understabnds the MLB swing, but his "factual" descriptions are sometimes off adn his personal style is as a bellied up backfoot power hitter.

His idea of the "launch position" is after you have droped the heel and kept the hands back to max torque production.

So, the "drop and tilt" cue is a good one in understanding that the uppwer and lower body must synch and that when you "go", you are continuing to keep the hands back to maximize stretch (for example, if you look at Candrea's tape, he has studied Epstein and Slaught, BUT when he has his player demo "heel drop", she brings the hands forward, showing he does not understand they need to stay back at this point).

He talks about the "GO" mainly in terms of "initiating the hips from the front"


He is also good in describing the coil/rubberband winding preparation that needs to preceed "drop and tilt" as you "rotate into toe touch".

It is VERY important to recognize this rubberband winding/float/running start phase prior to GO or you are not prepared for GO.
Still. there are lots of other upper body /synch details tha are good to know as the tip and rip emphasis highlights.

[Teacherman]

Weight forward at toe or heel drop?

Epstein says land the front foot with toe up at 60/40 weight on the front.

Ummmm....by definition....that is exactly what he said. That is weight forward. That is not riding the back leg. That is not weight shift at "go". That is clearly weight shift before "go". That is not the high level pattern.

Then he says to throw the heel to the ground to start the rubber band unwinding while resisting the upper body, but not go.

Again, 100% wrong. Just watch video. A novel idea. Here is the clip I keep posting that is continually ignored.



Both Ted and Barry maintain their weight over/on their rear leg until "go". There is no shift to 60/40 forward until after "go". There is no "throw the heel to start the rubber band unwinding"...(by the way....do you mean winding.....because the hips opening in the running start is winding.....not unwinding.....up until "go"), in fact, neither land on their toe.

The weight is mostly centered not back. through out the swing.

Complete nonsense. The weight shifts from back to forward at "go". You can make a case that it is never centered. It is over the rear leg up until "go"....then it is shifted up against the front leg. I wouldn't call that centered. That terminology does not properly define the movement. Centered is having weight distributed evenly over both feet. Both feet on the ground. The weight starts completely over the rear leg (front leg up int he air during the stride) and ends completely against the front leg (rear leg onto the toe or completely off the ground). That shift gives a HUGE boost to the Second Engine. That shift gives a HUGE boost to rotation.

boo boo or not it seems to work, or maybe just you mis-understanding or just wanting to throw out another dig at someone to make yourself feel better?

The goal is to properly define the swing.....ala golf......which is lightyears ahead of baseball/softball.

Epstein is very poor on the details.....as you have learned.....and as you choose to ignore.

He is wrong on toetouch/heeldrop.
He is wrong on weight being centered throughout the swing.
He is wrong on 60/40 weight distribution at toe touch.
He is absent on handle torque.
He is wrong on swing plane.

He may have the "system" that is closest to the mlb pattern....compared to the others. That says more about the others.

He also falls way short of "teaching what you actually see".

Cally,

I'm not interested in what you have to say. Nor what Epstein has to say. Unless you support it with clips. I already know what both of you think. IF you care to post some video, no still pictures allowed, I will discuss those clips with you and show you how you have been misled.

I get tired of posting clips to prove my points while you simply say...."well Mike said".....or "Jake told me this"....as another drive by by you. And then get your unders twisted because I don't buy into it. I happen to know their stuff as well as you do. I don't need it recited. Post some video evidence of your beliefs or leave it alone.

And if you post clips.....thicken your skin a little first. You'll need it.

P.S. While he teaches it wrong IMO, what he gets right is separation. And his students learn that and it helps them "beat the competition" at the lower levels. It isn't enough as they go up the ladder. When they meet their "athletic match" they are done until they learn the proper use of the hands/forearms. At some point, you need the whole encilada or you're done.

His system is incomplete. I, and others here, will compete the picture.

[mike28nc]

LOLOLOLOLOLOLO


Right!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[mike28nc]

fist. To me. Looks like in the first frame they are both head over chest / belly button.

2nd when both pick there lead foot up, there weight doest transfer fwd some. I don't see 60/40 but you can see it.

At heal drop you start to wind the rubber band per Mike E. (HIPS BEFORE HANDS / SEPARATION)



I don't know what is going on but you have been really cutting on Mike E. Don't know the man and haven't talked to him. But I do believe 92% of what you teach or talk about with different terms have came from Mike E and Mankin.

Mike

[swingbuilder]

and Epstirn and Mankin got 92% of what they regurgitate from someone before them.

[Teacherman]

first. To me. Looks like in the first frame they are both head over chest / belly button.

First....where the head is has little to do with which leg is bearing the weight.

2nd when both pick there lead foot up, there weight doest transfer fwd some. I don't see 60/40 but you can see it.

Second, when they pick up their front foot and "carry" forward, they absolutely have all of their weight supported by the rear leg.

It isn't even arguable.

At heal drop you start to wind the rubber band per Mike E. (HIPS BEFORE HANDS / SEPARATION)

At least you got the wind/unwind part right.

But it starts long before heel drop.

[mike28nc]

Where the head goes the body follows. You splitting hairs and that is ok if that is the way you want to do it.

If you pick up any foot. the only foot will have the only weight on it is the one on the ground. I guess that is what you mean weight back. Take a pill!

[Stealth]

Where the head goes the body follows. You splitting hairs and that is ok if that is the way you want to do it.

If you pick up any foot. the only foot will have the only weight on it is the one on the ground. I guess that is what you mean weight back. Take a pill!

Mike28 - take a look some more at the back leg during the load. It's a hard thing to teach youth players but I think when they get 13 and above they can do what teacherman shows. They (MLB guys) do ride that back leg - power!

[mike28nc]

Mike28 - take a look some more at the back leg during the load. It's a hard thing to teach youth players but I think when they get 13 and above they can do what teacherman shows. They (MLB guys) do ride that back leg - power!

Yes, during the load is where it is. Not weight but the pressure btwn front and back. it is not like the belly button/head is more to the back side.