Am I The Only One...

[Teacherman]

...that thinks the "before" is significantly better than the "after"



I guess not....I see beemax's post.

Will jbooth ever get a clue?

from jbooth....There's at least a half-dozen things wrong with the "before" swing, including the load that you seem to think is good, and very little wrong with the "after" swing, and the "after" swing probably produces hits with about twice the power as the "before" swing.

This kid should demand his money back.

http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=71992

[tom.guerry]

Richard-

I think it depends on the particular road you need to take.

The main flaw with the "before swing" is what Hodge identifies in throwing as "premaure external rotation" of the back arm. This is the main thing that is associated with the classical "top hand dominace" problem.

What happens is that the kid wants to power up with the arms and he tries to get the back arm/top hand in a dominat position BEFORE the lower body running start is underway.

The back arm external rotation should be at the same time or even delayed to permit the front leg then hips to turn open/get the running start first.When instead the back arm and top hand dominate prematurely/early/before the lower body running start, there is NO RESISTANCE. Coil is broken. Arms take over, arm extensionsequence goes out of order, looks like the classic "swing down"/arm swing at the end.

So, your destination needs to be the Wiliams total body powered "slight upswing" which stays connected to the untwisting torso all the way to contact which is what creates the "slight upswing".

BUT, learning how to coil means learning how to synch the upper and lower body with upper in control.

The good news is that you have to learn the same basic approach to throw well and lots of kids can do that, they still need good coaching though in many instances.

Then when you hit, you need to keep the freedom of the stride and lots or arm action so hands can get chance to be in control.

The Epstein drils here have gotten things a little beter by the bat on deltoid having limited the top hand dominance. Ideally this is resulting in a (occasionaly) distinct/NEW feel of effortless power that is recognized when the torso twist is better.

The you need to enhance that with the second engine.

So you really have to be there in person to know if the kid is getting the occasional power boost that you can then enhance with second engine which really lets you square lots of balls you never could before.

There is big danger that you can coach the second engine right out of kids by the dead hands-no stride if you do not understand the type of contact/result you are after.

[Teacherman]

Two of these three hitters demonstrate the same basic pattern.....albeit....one is much more advanced than the other.

Which two demonstrate the same pattern......the high level pattern?



Which two "swing by flattening"? Which one flattens then swings?

Which two understand the coil/uncoil running start? Which one is a dead start hitter?

Which two achieve better/more stretch?

Which two create early batspeed?

Which two can hit the ball deep in the zone?

Which two turn a triangle? Which one trys to maintain a box?

Which two have the hands as the axis of the barrels rotation? Which one's spine is his barrel's axis of rotation?

Which two swing in a diagonal swing plane? Which one swings in a mostly horizontal swing plane?

Which one has to take a hard left to get the barrel to arc through the zone?

The kid needs to refine many of the above mechanics.....you can see how much better Pujols is at all of them. But the road to success does not start by changing his before swing to the after swing.

He was "in the ballpark". Now he's behind the knot hole fence.

I believe Tom is "on top of" the cause. I don't believe the "after" swing is the right course of action.

[Pronk]

I thought that kid was taught at an Epstein clinic? I didn't see where Booth was involved.

Anyway his natural athleticism is gone. Break the wild Bronco I suppose. Just fix the bat wrap for starters and see what he can do.

[Teacherman]

They took the "torsion spring" out of him.

The very thing that makes the high level pattern the high level pattern.

The upper body going rearward as the lower body opens......the barrel arcing rearward.....and how, from that position, the "torsion spring" type load creates the cusp that energizes the entire system that is bringing the barrel around.

Now he just pushes the bat to the ball with a little help from the body.

Flatten.....push.....flatten.....push.

[tom.guerry]

THE COACH's description in this case is good too from the thread.

Coach worked with Donny some from what I have heard.

The kid is a typical high level starting point you would like to see.

Just as Lau would say: "he is swinging WHILE striding". That needs to be fixed.

Epstein drills can work to insert core moves if approached right.

I would try to keep the range of motion and improve the tip and rip to eliminate the wrapping and premature external rotation of the back arm when going hands free.

He already has the nice shoulder tilt with weight shift action in the before swing which is what gives him the separation ability you want to improve on.

[Teacherman]

These clips and this thread reminds me of a two hour drive I had to one of my son's games last spring. For much of that two hours I was on the phone with Donny. We were discussing the "overlap". The upper body and barrel going rearward...the lower body opening...and how that "blends" into the launch...that blending is what he called the "overlap". You don't cut short what each hemisphere is doing.....you blend them together to create the cusp.

Many kids do it right and then have it coached right out of them. I see it often as a way to 'quicken' the swing.

Removing parts is not the answer. You may have quickened the swing but you've caused other problems. If quickness is an issue, you have to learn how to get to the overlap on time.....you don't eliminate it.

IMO, this kids "overlap" was removed.

If there is one, the "overlap" is the "magic move". The creation of early batspeed rearward, combined with the lower body running start, while still allowing the hitter the ability to adjust....and then everything is blended together at "go" to get a cusp.

[tom.guerry]

Nyman comments

http://www.setpro.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8919

[GroundUp]

...that thinks the "before" is significantly better than the "after"



I guess not....I see beemax's post.

Will jbooth ever get a clue?



This kid should demand his money back.

http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=71992

The hitter on the right can’t possible generate early bat speed because their bat isn’t tilted back.

I had a kid pick up 9mph in terms of their ball exit speed merely by having them fix this. If they don’t tilt the bat back towards the field then they lose the ability to generate early bat speed.

The hitter on the right exhibits degraded lower body momentum mechanics.

While he may be “maintaining a box” in his new swing it isn’t helping him from preventing bat drag.

[HYP]

The hitter on the right can’t possible generate early bat speed because their bat isn’t tilted back.

I had a kid pick up 9mph in terms of their ball exit speed merely by having them fix this. If they don’t tilt the bat back towards the field then they lose the ability to generate early bat speed.

The hitter on the right exhibits degraded lower body momentum mechanics.

While he may be “maintaining a box” in his new swing it isn’t helping him from preventing bat drag.

We are talking about 2 swings that are meant for 2 different things. What I mean is the clip on the left is the kid taking a full swing and the clip on the right resembles the Epstein numbers drill whch is trying to teach specific movements. I don't believe this is a finished "product".

HYP

[GroundUp]

We are talking about 2 swings that are meant for 2 different things. What I mean is the clip on the left is the kid taking a full swing and the clip on the right resembles the Epstein numbers drill whch is trying to teach specific movements. I don't believe this is a finished "product".

HYP

If he's performing Epstein's Numbers Drill on the right, then he's way off.

Epstein's 1-2-3 drill has the hitter get into their ready position on '1', the upper body torque position on '2' and swing on '3'.

Epstein is a major advocate of generating upper body torque. I don't see that in the video on the right. Perhaps I'm missing something.

[HYP]

If he's performing Epstein's Numbers Drill on the right, then he's way off.

Epstein's 1-2-3 drill has the hitter get into their ready position on '1', the upper body torque position on '2' and swing on '3'.

Epstein is a major advocate of generating upper body torque. I don't see that in the video on the right. Perhaps I'm missing something.

Groundup,

I agree. IMO he is attempting the numbers drill. Yes he is not doing it correctly but it appears that that is what he is trying. I probably shouldn't assume.

HYP

[swingbuilder]

The kid on the left is a natural the one on the right will lose interest.

[Callyjr]

The swing on the right is an Epstein finished product, not just the #'s drill. The swing on the right is also better for this kid at this time. If you go back and read the other post you will see that his dad says he is hitting much better, He also talkes about how the kid struggled with that great swing on the left.
Neither are perfect, but the swing on the right is much better at this age for this kid. What he lacks in pre swing movement(tip and rip) he is getting back by using his lower half, just look at the hips for both swings at contact.
Would the kid look like this If I trained him? Naaa, but I could add tip and rip and in 2 sessions with this kid and then you all would love his swing.

Cally

[swingbuilder]

I like his natural actions and movements. He will work his way back to them. I would have prefered to build on some of the things he does right naturally. His issues were not his swing. It was his timing of the swing.