The Whip Test....

[Teacherman]

Look very closely at these two clips.

A low effort on my part. Just a demo. Yet.....can you see the subtle....slight....hip socket load against the rear hip? Its very slight....all done in rhythm.

My lead leg moves....your lead leg moves. As MY lead leg moves forward I have this slight rearward 'twist' going on in my hip socket....against my leg. You can 'see' the movement in the arms/shoulders/torso....but it is taking place in the hip socket. It is so natural to me....now....I never think about it anymore. When I pick up my lead leg it just happens....hip coils against rear leg. As YOUR lead leg moves forward, your rear hip and rear leg move forward with it...slightly after the lead leg...but in unison. I see no arm/shoulder/torso 'twist'.

What you are doing is what Builder says is lead leg bleed. And it is bleed if you never get hip socket separation. And this is why he is clueless to what we are saying. No matter how many times you try to tell him....he talks over you and won't listen. IF he would walk through it step by step with me....like you are doing....he would come out a believer. But....his ego will not allow the fall.

Your little momentum move of the lead leg moves AWAY FROM your rear hip and leg, so does mine, but because you need to push into it....against it....(because of no 'thumb/forefinger load in the rear hip socket....no rear side resistance to pull against)....the 'disapperance of' the lead leg....is a bleed. You've bled the corner....nothing to push into/against if the lead leg is running away from you. THAT is what Builder says and sees in the swings. THAT is why he claims Brandon's lead leg is pulling him forward....when NOTHING COULD BE FURTHER FROM THE TRUTH. If the lead leg is not there to push into....in his mind....it must be pulling you forward. When the reality is....the real action....is in the rear hip socket separation and lat and scap.

Today he made a ridiculous comment about the unweighted lead leg being stronger than the weighted rear leg. You see....his unweighted lead leg IS strong (I still don't think stronger than the rear leg)....because he is the one using the lead leg....I (my teaching) do not. It isn't necessary. He uses it to push into. He needs it to unload into. He uses it to hold back....against his forward pushing 'the move'. That is why he speaks of 'pressure between the knees'. He continues to spew about Brandon's lead leg 'pulling' the rear hip forward...and his lead leg 'slamming into the hip socket' then pulling the rear hip forward. I mean....that is complete nonsense. That is what happens when you try to ADD what we teach to what you already teach....when what you already teach is wrong.

To understand what I teach you MUST replace your 'stuff'....with my 'stuff'....not add it to what you already think.....when what you already think is wrong....and proven wrong by the video.

I think I got sidetracked here. But it is important to understand what the lead leg should do....how the rear leg/hip/lat/scap load creating rear side resistance....so the lead leg doesn't provide resistance. Lead leg resistance PROHIBITS overlap.

It is this very issue (that is actually indisputable, even though they constantly dispute it) that keeps Builder, lclifton, cosmo, hitnpeas.....(Mud is fighting through it...making progress)...et al....from 'getting it'....and it is why they left.

Trust me.....WE KNOW SOMETHING THEY DON'T.

[tom.guerry]

hall of fame detailed explanation.

rear side vs front side resistance

[mcallister]

OK.... maybe I missed it in this thread, but without a little bit of mo mo how the hell can I get off the backside? There HAS to be sumthin that allows for the separation b/w rear hip/hands (HI) .. .. Upper/Lower torso (Epstein) .... some way for the body to move to generate this....

we can talk rear leggedness but I have students which sway.. I have students which shrift early too.... and there are cases that the rear knee/hip and/or front shoulder lifting which displaces the weight too much on the backside....

This comment is purely from my read on mo mo ... and teach's opposition too....
which I don't think is true... (see stealth)...

mcallister

[Ben]

I agree that sometimes kids have to get mo mo going to appear in the right pattern, but I am with Teach on this one.

If you can coil correctly(which is a big if) and have the rear hip as the botom of the top, that IMO creates the mo mo you need.

What I see is either kids or adults like me we move the rear hip first and it is the top of the bottom and then you have to use mo mo to make up for it or they dont use the hip at all and just use mo mo from the start.

Learn how to coil properly and unload properly and then it creates the mo mo you need.

[Teacherman]

First of all....when I speak of the evil of momentum, I'm speaking of forward momentum. I'm not speaking of a barrel tip or a barrel float or arm action loading or hip coil. I'm speaking of moving forward.

Now.....

You have hitters who sway.

And you have hitters who shift too early.

The NEED for momentum is the cause of both.

NEED as compared to WANT.

Momentum is the biggest obstacle in the way of learning the proper load.

Kids bypass.....skip....miss.....overlap....due to rushing. Rushing that comes from momentum.

Your hitter that sways.....does so because he hasn't developed a thumb/forefinger type load. He can not just stand there and unload like a mother. He has to 'get going' first. That will someday bust him.

Your hitter that shfits too early.....does so because he hasn't developed a thumb/forefinger type load. He can not just stand there and unload like a mother either. He needs to 'get going' also. Why? Because he isn't thumb/forefinger loaded.

When you are thumb/forefinger loaded....by way of the internally rotating leg against the coiling hip....with the added lat and scap action.....you should be able to just stand there and unload with tremendous force. IF you keep the corner.

I suppose you can make a case that there is momentum within that hip/leg/lat/scap loading.....even though you aren't moving. But it isn't forward momentum.

Kids use momentum in place of proper loading. They have some success at lower levels. They will be at the pitchers mercy soon.

Momentum should be the icing on the cake....added after they learn to hit in a phone booth. It should be added for rhythm and timing and that extra 10%. Until they learn to hit in a phone booth....they will rely on momentum....and never learn the suddenness that comes from a proper load.

As to ministealth....I have yet to see someone point out what he does differently than EVERY OTHER KID that has ever tried to duplicate his Happy Gilmore drill. I have yet to see a kid do what ministealth is doing in his Happy Gilmore. Whether natural....or taught by his dad....or taught by a former coach.....ministealth loads properly. And he was able to build momentum into his well loaded hip/leg/hands by way of the Happy Gilmore drill. Was it luck? Natural? Taught to him? I don't know. But it really doesn't matter when 99 out of the next 100 kids you see will not be doing what ministealth does. And if it is your job to teach them what he's doing....forward momentum will only lengthen their learning.

Lets go back a ways....



As far as I know.....I am the first to 'talk about' hip socket separation as THE teach. Separation to everyone else was between the shoulders and the hips.....what I now call waist separation. Waist separation is sloppy and slow. Waist separation NEEDS momentum because it is sluggish....a slow moving vehicle. There is NOTHING....absolutley nothing....sudden about the unload of waist separation.

Yet....ministealth looks like he's 10-12 years old.....and he's separating in the hip socket. And we weren't even talking about it then. At the time of these clips this site was 100% Second Engine. If we weren't talking about it....I'm pretty sure no one else was. I see him getting stretch between the hands and the rear hip. I see hip socket separation.

I am only anti forward momentum until they show me a propler load/unload.

And the truth of the matter is.....there is tremendous momentum that comes out of the unload of a properly loaded rear hip/leg.

[tom.guerry]

the "it" factor:

http://www.teachersbilliards.com/Hit...inistealth.gif

how many who have "it" get it coached out of them

first do no harm. second engine at very least did no harm.

primum non nocere

[Stealth]

First of all....when I speak of the evil of momentum, I'm speaking of forward momentum. I'm not speaking of a barrel tip or a barrel float or arm action loading or hip coil. I'm speaking of moving forward.

Now.....

You have hitters who sway.

And you have hitters who shift too early.

The NEED for momentum is the cause of both.

NEED as compared to WANT.

Momentum is the biggest obstacle in the way of learning the proper load.

Kids bypass.....skip....miss.....overlap....due to rushing. Rushing that comes from momentum.

Your hitter that sways.....does so because he hasn't developed a thumb/forefinger type load. He can not just stand there and unload like a mother. He has to 'get going' first. That will someday bust him.

Your hitter that shfits too early.....does so because he hasn't developed a thumb/forefinger type load. He can not just stand there and unload like a mother either. He needs to 'get going' also. Why? Because he isn't thumb/forefinger loaded.

When you are thumb/forefinger loaded....by way of the internally rotating leg against the coiling hip....with the added lat and scap action.....you should be able to just stand there and unload with tremendous force. IF you keep the corner.

I suppose you can make a case that there is momentum within that hip/leg/lat/scap loading.....even though you aren't moving. But it isn't forward momentum.

Kids use momentum in place of proper loading. They have some success at lower levels. They will be at the pitchers mercy soon.

Momentum should be the icing on the cake....added after they learn to hit in a phone booth. It should be added for rhythm and timing and that extra 10%. Until they learn to hit in a phone booth....they will rely on momentum....and never learn the suddenness that comes from a proper load.

As to ministealth....I have yet to see someone point out what he does differently than EVERY OTHER KID that has ever tried to duplicate his Happy Gilmore drill. I have yet to see a kid do what ministealth is doing in his Happy Gilmore. Whether natural....or taught by his dad....or taught by a former coach.....ministealth loads properly. And he was able to build momentum into his well loaded hip/leg/hands by way of the Happy Gilmore drill. Was it luck? Natural? Taught to him? I don't know. But it really doesn't matter when 99 out of the next 100 kids you see will not be doing what ministealth does. And if it is your job to teach them what he's doing....forward momentum will only lengthen their learning.

Lets go back a ways....



As far as I know.....I am the first to 'talk about' hip socket separation as THE teach. Separation to everyone else was between the shoulders and the hips.....what I now call waist separation. Waist separation is sloppy and slow. Waist separation NEEDS momentum because it is sluggish....a slow moving vehicle. There is NOTHING....absolutley nothing....sudden about the unload of waist separation.

Yet....ministealth looks like he's 10-12 years old.....and he's separating in the hip socket. And we weren't even talking about it then. At the time of these clips this site was 100% Second Engine. If we weren't talking about it....I'm pretty sure no one else was. I see him getting stretch between the hands and the rear hip. I see hip socket separation.

I am only anti forward momentum until they show me a propler load/unload.

And the truth of the matter is.....there is tremendous momentum that comes out of the unload of a properly loaded rear hip/leg.

Teach; give me a little credit.

Mini was 11 in the first three clips and 12 in the last one.

I really think the tipping action we started around 12 was the key, it allowed him to separate. You can see the vertical barrel in the 4th clip which was when we first changed his hand set and started experimenting with things.

I can remember when Mini was closer to 13 and Gregg Jefferies saw his vertical bat and tipping action. He was watching him hit and came over and said "stop, we have to fix this right away" - I about died. Of course after watching video Gregg was ok with things, but he certainly does NOT advocate that type of action. So Teach we can eliminate Gregg as the "teacher" of his load.

[Teacherman]

My point is about the hip socket separation that is clear in ministealth's swing....that has been there for quite some time.....that is absent in most other kids. His barrel tip may have done it for him....but barrel tipping didn't do it for your other son, nor for gary, steven, jon, john, ty, drew, tyler, ryan, mark, tom, sam, brad, brandon, jordan, cheyenne, wy, maddie, cmac, etc, etc and all the others that have come and gone. (it did it briefly for brandon....then disappeared)

If you taught it to him, great. I'm not looking for credit, I am defending my position that momentum makes it very difficult to find hip socket separation. Momentum keeps them moving. It challenges their balance. They aren't in one place long enough to allow overlap to happen. They momentum to balance instead of stretch to balance. They never learn to stretch on either side of the pivot point. They move right through the spot where it could/should happen but don't allow it to happen as they rush to swing.

[Teacherman]

When you learn to ride a bike momentum is a good thing....it balances you. You can't be stationery on a bike and upright. Momentum is needed to balance you.

However, momentum to a tight wire walker will bust him. He has to learn to balance by adding/reducing weight on either side of the wire.

Amateur hitters 'ride their bike' when they hit.

Professional hitters 'walk the tight wire' when they hit.

[lynnelles]

can you see the subtle....slight....hip socket load against the rear hip?

As MY lead leg moves forward I have this slight rearward 'twist' going on in my hip socket....against my leg.

I think both Mini-Stealth and Longoria seem to have a "visible" rearward pelvic coil (in their pelvis) as their front leg moves forward. (I couldn't figure out how to turn them into gifs for me to post.)

You can 'see' the movement in the arms/shoulders/torso....but it is taking place in the hip socket.

As YOUR lead leg moves forward, your rear hip and rear leg move forward with it...slightly after the lead leg...but in unison. I see no arm/shoulder/torso 'twist'.

I was trying so hard just to turn in my rear hip and not use my spine to help rotate. Afterward, when I was thinking about it, I realized that I was literally just uncoiling my rear pelvis instead of turning the coiled hip forward.

Your little momentum move of the lead leg moves AWAY FROM your rear hip and leg, so does mine, but because you need to push into it....against it....(because of no 'thumb/forefinger load in the rear hip socket....no rear side resistance to pull against)....the 'disapperance of' the lead leg....is a bleed.

I need to figure out how to further coil my pelvis rearward when my lead leg begins to move forward, correct? In my above clip, I was using the lead leg to hold my pelvic rearward coil.

[Teacherman]

In my above clip, I was using the lead leg to hold my pelvic rearward coil.

You been hanging out with Swingbuilder?

lol

That is what he teaches....and it will absolutely....positively....keep you from the pattern.

It is all about 'either side of the rear leg'. Balancing the load around both sides of the rear leg.

The lead leg does nothing consciously.

[Teacherman]

See the 'snappiness' of mini's rear hip.

That will not happen with lead leg action.

That is rear hip/lat/....against the rear leg.

[Teacherman]

REDEMPTION

[Teacherman]

Compare....



Excellent work Lynnelles. Ty and Drew are going to benefit greatly from your effort.

[Teacherman]

No contact point to sync them to....just a guesstimate.