What Untips The Barrel?

[Teacherman]

In my opinion it is the scap action.....not the hands. Meaning...the hands allow it to happen as the scap action takes place.



If the hands are doing the untipping....then they bleed some of their power....and it isn't all there to turn the barrel at go. And it's difficult to start the hands to untip....then go with them....two moves.....resistance is lost making it less efficient.

In conjunction with recent posts regarding what most call the scap loading actually being the beginning of the launch.....here is a clip that I believe shows some important points.



The most important point being HOW the swivel.....HOW the hand pivot point .....is created.

The second being....a point we talked about recently....The goal should not be to swing.....at least while you're learning......the goal for a new student HAS to be getting to the launch position and getting there on time.

[Pronk]

So Teach is it:

Max Scap Pinch
Hips open
Hold the pinch

Or would this work:
90% Scap pinch
Hips Open
Max Scap pinch

I think we get a little spoiled watching Kent because his pinch is less obvious. This clip of Rowand is nice though because it's more like exactly what you say on the Brandon clip and might be an easier Teach than the 90% that I posted.

[tom.guerry]

I think the primary action is external rotation of the back arm while the arm stays up and back and the scap stays pinched.

[GroundUp]

The second being....a point we talked about recently....The goal should not be to swing.....at least while you're learning......the goal for a new student HAS to be getting to the launch position and getting there on time.

I like this.

The launch ... needs to be "timed", and have the hands/barrel well positioned and loaded.

[swingbuilder]

do you think its a scap pinch? or is the pinch a result of the the uload because of the hands resistence.

[tom.guerry]

builder-

I think the ongoing pinch is under the direction of the educated hands which are resisting the way they need to.

What I call "untipping" starts with the way I interpret what Richard has called at one point "the float" which is the timing window of the running start that is interrupted at some point by the GO.

This untipping is the body coiling with good synch by simultaneous external rotation of the back arm and front leg.

The external rotation of the front leg has often been criticized as "extra motion" requiring compensation with the downside potential of increasing timing error and the upside of creating more momentum/power.

This is the wrong analysis of the priority here. the priority is synching upper and lower body motions for well timed coiling and it requires feeling the synch of the back arm and front leg that is the same as in overhand throw.

This prepares the body for the GO move when the resisting hands demand it, and the GO move is primarily/first accomplished by the forearms, then immediately supported by TILT of scaps which involves the final pinch/clamp of the back scap.

So when you look at Vlad for example< the hands are going back/resisting as the untipping starts primarily by external rotation of the back arm while the arm/elbow stays up and back as much as possible.

This is the same thing as keeping the back elbow up in loading for the overhand throw. The back arm external rotation starts brining the throwing hand up as the stride leg thigh starts to turnover/open the foot (external rotation of front leg synched to back arm). At the sametime you "feel" as if you are keeping the back elbow up. In reality/onvideo, the back elbow is usually forced down a little by range of motion limits of the ball in the back shoulder socket, but the muscles are working the keep the back scap pinched and keep the back elbow uo and back (aBducted and extended humerus in shoulder socket) as much as possible.

[swingbuilder]

ok, I just want people to understand its not a big muscle initial move. What happens in the scap is a result of what is going on else where.

[tom.guerry]

see also;

http://www.hittingillustrated.com/fo...8&postcount=60

[Pronk]

I want to bump this thread because I don't feel like I am getting this vertically oriented forearm through to myself or my sons. Well mostly my younger son.

Rich posted this today. What I wanted to get at was GO or torque of the bat seems to be accelerated or launched from the vertical forearm. This is what I was getting at in the HG thread where I wanted to see his back arm line up a little like Brandon's here:



I am not sure how to get this across. My fear is teaching it will lead to a two-piece swing where we let the barrel just kind of untip ala Drew Macias practice swings. But I guaran-dam-tee we are not getting to this and holding it. I sure as heck don't want to sit down my 11 and talk about holding the scap, but as I watch the swing I see the hands leaving the pinch.

I actually the answer lies simply in not loading back (everything at once) and going forward. Teaching to load the scap and hold won't cut it. However I do think we might have to spend some time in slo-mo on the barrel path, but it does worry me a little that it could lead to that two-part thinking.

[GroundUp]

What Untips The Barrel?
In my opinion it is the scap action.....not the hands. Meaning...the hands allow it to happen as the scap action takes place.



If the hands are doing the untipping....then they bleed some of their power....and it isn't all there to turn the barrel at go. And it's difficult to start the hands to untip....then go with them....two moves.....resistance is lost making it less efficient.

This makes sense to me ... and it explains the failure of some of my experiments.

Please identify the 'go' frame. I want to understand the exact frame when you recommend active hand involvement.

[Teacherman]

First and foremost....keep in mind....that the Second Engine has always been the unload....not the load. So....the handle torque, forearm rotation and lateral tilt happen at 'go'.

So.....IMO.....'GO' in this clip is best 'determined' or best 'seen' by the lead shoulder action. Look for the frame when it goes up. At the same time the handle is torqued aggressively.

That doesn't mean that while the top arm/elbow/scap is pulling back....leaving the barrel tipped while doing so....that there isn't torque on the handle. Consider it similar to the inital push of the foot. The initial push gets you moving....but there is a final launch type push of the foot at 'go'. Vlady uses his hands in a similar fashion. The rear arm/elbow/scap start pulling the barrel back while it remains tipped. Shortly thereafter the hands apply pressure on the handle to allow the barrel to start to untip. It is a controlled untip. And when the barrel gets to the spot....he puts the full Second Engine into effect. He torques it hard, lateral tilts, yada yada....at 'go'.

And here is the important stuff. The early pressure on the handle....while tipped but untipping some....enough to 'feel' the barrel....IS A LOADING ACTION.....it recruits the lower body. It connects to the rear hip. It creates the resistance necessary to get the hips to open, the stretch to occur and the overlap to happen.

This is one technique of the high level pattern. This is the pattern that includes the barrel 'float'. Some float it...some don't.



Watch his lead shoulder to determine go. While the float is under way....the barrel is still up and behind his head when he goes. He gets early batspeed.....behind him. His whip is behind him.

His hands completely control the process. From applying a little bit of torque to start the float....which creates resistance that recruits the lower body....to the final torque at go.

[Teacherman]

Keep in mind that there are other versions of the Second Engine.



These guys don't float the barrel. They launch and spend from the extreme tip. This usually is accompanied by the extreme high rear elbow load.

[Teacherman]

Bonds and Williams....floaters....

[Teacherman]

What is your call on Kent?

[Pronk]

What we are getting at is teaching proper stretch. You can stretch it like Howard/Manny or you can stretch with a lower hand pump that comes up to the shoulders at peak (Ortiz, Bonds, Hamilton). Or Kent is just a little different with the lower elbow and hands somewhat forward placed.

I made this clip for him to see how he loads it all back (leg and hands) together. We did some dry swings in the garage trying to get a feel for keeping his base setup (so as not to introduce too much change) but relax it to 90% or so, and try to get some kind of bump back at GO. Looks great in dry swings, we'll have to see how it looks in a game situation.

Here was the clip we used: