Blank.....IS The Swing.

[Teacherman]

Fill in the blank.

[HYP]

Fill in the blank.

The flattening of the hands?

The turning of the hands/forearms, rotating of the triangle and tilting of the shoulders?

[Teacherman]

Yep.

All three are important. But I get a feeling the shoulder lateral tilt is misunderstood.

Recently I've seen swings that appear to be 'in the ball park'. Yet they aren't exposive. They aren't sudden.

In those swings the shoulder lateral tilt almost appears to be a separate move.

It is literally the lead shoulder going straight up....and the rear shoulder going straight down....which is 'smoothed out' in video....and misinterpreted because of the turning of the hips. That turning 'rounds off' the look.

But the feel is what is important. It feels like your back is flat up against a wall and you have to swing while leaving it flat against the wall. Again....that is the feel. Reality is the hips are turning everything. So the look is different. But that is the feel to be created.

I see swings that appear to be a partial lateral tilt followed by a turning. A turning not generated by the hip turn...but a redirecting of the shoulders....from lateral to around the spine. By the shoulders.

The lateral tilt is a launch and spend move. It is an 'all in' move. It is all or nothing. It is the lead shoulder straight up....rear shoulder straight down.....all at once....and very sudden.

Done correctly this projects the hips forward....it shifts them forward into the overlap.

Can you 'feel' what Manny feels? It feels like there is a spike right through his sternum....roughtly horizontal to the ground....and his shoulders/torso rotate about that spike.

But there is no spike. So....how about this.....it is a lateral bend of the spine. Which is WAY more explosive and sudden than rotation around that spine.

It is as sudden as a twitch. And a reason kids have trouble getting it is it is directed away from the ball. The rear shoulder going down...and the hands going down....so that the barrel can turn upward through the zone.....is NOT what 99.99% of them do. 99.99% of them take the hands forward in some fashion or another. And this forward hand movement is accompanied by a forward turn of the rear shoulder. A turn of the rear shoulder initially toward the plate....'around the shoulders'.....and then toward the pitcher....as they continue to rotate around the shoulders.

The lateral tilt is an aggressive....explosive.....sudden.....'all in'.....all or nothing.....launch and spend.....downward move....of the rear shoulder....with your back held against a wall 'feel'.

Therefore.....I'm going to say it.....again.....and again and again and again......THERE IS NO TILT TOWARD THE PLATE IN A HIGH LEVEL SWING.

The tilt over the plate that 'they' see.....is the 'turned' lateral shoulder tilt. What they see is the lateral shoulder tilt AFTER the hip turn....and claim the hitter maintained his tilt through contact. Hogwash.

They say the hitter started tilted over the plate. But, I would say....no they didn't....instead they 'sat'.....either in their stance (Pujols)....or they moved there during their load (Bonds)....and that 'sit' includes some bend at the waist for balance.

BUT......rather than argue that......lets argue what can be proven.

What can be proven is how the bow (tilt over the plate....forward bend at the waist) must turn to arch (arch of the back) to free the rear hip.

In other words.....to hit.....you HAVE to come out of your initial bend.



Notice how a high level pitcher bows at the waist....and then arches his back....and what happens at that time?.....at the time of the arch......separation. The rear hip is given the freedom to perform by the 'coming out of the tilt'.

And here is what is interesting.....and another PCR misread. While bowed.......I call it sit with balance.....they call it tilt over the plate that must be maintained through contact.....the rear leg is pushing....and pushing hard.....with little to no movement.....isometic if you will....because of the torso's 'hold' by leaning over. And then....when the upper body gives up the 'hold'.....gives up the tilt.....and arches the lower back......when the shoulders laterally tilt......there is a suddenness to the push of the rear leg. The resistance is gone. The rear hip fires up and through.

Show me a PCR hitters whose rear hip goes up and through. It doesn't exist. Their rear hip is trapped. They don't push with the rear leg. They don't use resisitance to get any sudden launch.

[Teacherman]

Sandman confuses swinging with hitting.

http://www.baseball-fever.com/showth...t=86117&page=2

While related....they are two completely different animals.

And......his hang up appears to be his son and his students/players taking what they've learned into a game.

Well.....read his recent posts.

IF your hitters took this advice to the plate with them....

....loading his hips while developing an athletic posture, striding while keeping his foot closed and loading his shoulders

Looking at his stance, his back appears arched. Stick that butt out more and pull the shoulders back

http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=86560

....do you really think their workouts would lead to game improvement?

[tom.guerry]

More great stuff !

This also fits with Kevin's point about the double pendulum.

The proximal/central pendulum is the torso/lead arm flywheel mass, and it does not drive the bat/second pendulum as long as it is accelerating.

the MLB pattern creates the cusp stretch and fire of the torso, the fire being when the last quick bit of torso stretch reverses.

at this point of unloading of the torso, there is large inertia/resistance to acceleration of the bat/second pendulum which is not a problem because of the running start.

So the TILT of the shoulders is key to both optimizing the momentum of the torso and the firing of the bat seen as the rearward blur when the tilt happens while the bend stays in the back elbow, then the firing of the bathead.

Bypass in action.

[Pronk]

Well in keeping it simple in terms of a cue I still prefer simply saying the flattening is the swing.

I want to refocus on teaching the launch of the swing from that position. Turn the triangle though really seems to help with the hands turning to get that lateral tilt feel.

[tom.guerry]

A very different version of the PCR one thing doing one thing ?

It's a different thing.

[Teacherman]

Flattening is the swing.

And it takes all three things.....with all three things being 'all in'.....launched and spent......to flatten with the necessary quickness and speed.

[Teacherman]

RayR....a PCR....swing from the middle guy....weighs in with...

Amen, Brother!

.....in response to the 'taking it to the game' problem so many have.

Funny, how, after just a few lessons, after years of PCR.....my son immediately took it to the game.

You see....to them....they couldn't be wrong. The stuff they are learning 'couldn't be wrong'.

And I will state again and again.....if the Dad never gets into the batters box....he will sell his son down the river.

That is what it took for me to finally listen to Brandon's objections. Until then I was in the 'you're just not doing it right' camp.....'you just don't get it yet'.....camp. Much like they continue to say about each of us.

I spent a total of about 4 hours teaching Brandon the Second Engine....and he hit 3 HR's in a double header on 5/24/07....just a few days after he returned from college for the summer. He had never hit a HR before in his life.

I'm not saying it is easy. I'm not saying it's automatic. I'm not saying its permanent. You have to practice. A lot. But when you try something new.....you should have some immediate success of some kind. Maybe not consistently....but you have to have some. If you have to give it the 'snipe hunt'.....for several years.....and still wonder.....I will unequivocably tell you....if after a few swings in your first few lessons.....if you haven't squared some balls to the degree that you say "whooooa....I've never done that before".....you need to say NEXT....and move to the next theory. Because you're being lead astray.

[kyleb]

That is what it took for me to finally listen to Brandon's objections. Until then I was in the 'you're just not doing it right' camp.....'you just don't get it yet'.....camp. Much like they continue to say about each of us.

As a HS coach myself, I understand this all too well. Dr. Marshall has the same problem.

"You're not doing it right."
"For some reason, I teach my students X but they cannot do X..."
"You just don't get it."

Well, if you can't show me SOMETHING (it doesn't have to be perfect), why should I respond?

[imagine44]

All three are important. But I get a feeling the shoulder lateral tilt is misunderstood.
It is literally the lead shoulder going straight up....and the rear shoulder going straight down....

You can see coaches all over the place killing this move in kids by telling them that they are dropping their rear shoulder. Even when it's obvious that the kid is using this move to quicken up.

Imagine