Barrel dumping

[tom.guerry]

I knew we would get the PCR-Fever party line on barrel dumping soon which is that the trouble is "external rotation of back arm".

Now this is coming from BM who is suddenly the great 'humerus'/arm action is king advocate.

Once again contradicting himself to fog over his incompetence.

http://www.baseball-fever.com/showpo...04&postcount=9

BM:"But "dumping the barrel" early is a swing flaw and is exaserbated by EXTERNAL ROTATION of the top hand forearm at launch.............AND, by not pulling the hands in during the slot.........."Hanging them out to dry" so to speak........."

In this case, BM is parroting the analysis of SteveE as dutiflly recorded by posse member siggy from his hitting mechanics are as easy as P-C-R page:

http://home.roadrunner.com/~john.sigler/fastpitch/



siggy's "swing flaws" according to PCR theory include:

"Bat drag - back arm externally rotates at the elbow - like you're losing in arm wrestling - and the rear elbow ends up getting ahead of the hands during the early portion of the swing. Causes a long, slow swing - albeit one which often has a lot of power when solid contact does occur."

The best way to understand this is from the REAL "arm action is king" info which describes how the back arm LOADING action/sequence is the same in throwing and hitting.

In both, rubberbandwinding/coil needs to be times by synching external rotation of the back arm and front leg to synch the upper and lower body for top down control.

In the overhand throw, this is the same as "keeping the back elbow up" as you start to bring the throwing hand up.

The FLAW is when you let the back elbow flex/come forward past the side (which is why you still want the elbow and side lined up in the CONNECTION position for hitting.

The PCR biomechanics experts and BM do not understand the difference between upper arm/humerus/external rotation at the shoulder which is NECESSARY for coiling/loading and the flawed flexion/adduction of sliding the back elbow forward past the side/"SLOT" which is the primary casue of dumping.

The back elbow needs to stay back and poke, not slide forward as it comes down.

Same in throwing as hitting up to point of POKE.

Pretty lame analysis from the avowed humerus expert.

[tom.guerry]

great dumping Schmidt clip by XV/PT1 here:

http://www.baseball-fever.com/showpo...4&postcount=20

Williams dumped the barrel like Schmidt too.

Where can I get me some of that ?

Maybe BM doesn't know what he's talking about. That would be unusual.

[Teacherman]

Good explanation, Tom.

The eblow getting ahead of the side of the body....typically diagnosed as bat drag because often it is also leading the top hand....is barrel dumping also.

In fact....any knob pull....rotational or not....is barrel dumping....even if it hasn't lowered below the level of the rear forearm.

If you aren't torquing the handle....you are either dumping the barrel or about to.

Why? Because with the knob pull you've lost the barrel. The only pitch you can hit is the one directly in line with the pull. You have little control over the barrel because that is the only ball you can get to.

Any adjustment is not possible. But....with the handle torque/swivel/forearm rotation....you own the barrel. And your arms are free to adjust it to the ball.

[tom.guerry]

Some Nyman Englishbey blueprint stuff that is not the same as the "we've always said this stuff" revision we are hearing. They are afraid of hand/second engine because they do not understand it:

Nyman:

http://www.setpro.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8631

"The utility of the box (my interpretation) was emphasize that at the initiation of the swing, the shoulders, arms, hands, bat move as a single unit i.e. connection. Again this was based on my observation that most players dropped the barrel of the bat either by dropping their hands and/or externally rotating their top hand shoulder. Again this is a natural consequence of using/focusing on the hands to move the bat. "
========

Englishbey:

http://www.baseball-fever.com/showpo...8&postcount=16

BOX STUFF and see also hands along for ride/scap load etc.

"In other words they "lock-in the box" early [the arm /bat /shoulder configuration ] and maintain it until late into the swing [the uncocking or unhinging of the wrist ].

In other words the "arm action " involved in the ML hitters is a part of the UNLOADING of the body ,ie they do what they need to do with the arms /bat to LINK or connect the bat to the body.And certainly one of the things that they do is to create and maintain the hinge angle.Its created early and maintained until late into the load /unload process.

I have defined this as creating and maintaining the box[this is part of the defintion of the box] ,and sometimes explained this as "just holding onto the damn bat and turning ." The "holding on " is shorthand for NOT doing things like "slotting " to INITIATE the swing ,or lose the hinge angle ,or bend or straighten the front arm at initiation [and shortly thereafter ].Doing anything and everything EXCEPT that which helps to link the bat to the momentum path of the shoulders /torso [as it is tilted and turning ].

The "box " should NOT be understood as a LITERAL BOX [4 sides evenly measured----you do not need a ruler to try and measure the EXACTNESS here -----the bones muscles and connective tissue cannot create perfected geometric 2 dimensional objects ! And thankfully we dont have to.]

The "box" represents a rough estimate or box-LIKE configuration of the arm/bat and that configuration relative to the body .Thus it is an analogy ,a model ,a visual aid [insome cases] of the upper body /bat.


But even more important ,is that it represents a certain kind of STABILITY that a box would have .And this is maybe THE most important thing to understand in terms of understanding the box as a model ,or analogy.Meaning that the arms need to be very STABLE as the swing starts--and should not bend or straighten ,or rotate [at the glenhumeral joint ] INDEPENDENT of the "tilt and turn " of the torso ."Tilt " ,meaning tilt over the plate .

[tom.guerry]

We are getting more of the "STEVE already described scap loading/unloading like Nyman did which is all the POKE is".

This is COMPLETELY wrong because the devil is in the details and Nyman and Englishbey got the details of the scaps and the humerus wrong. And BM is selling the same mistaken ideas.

The RIGHT sequence of scap and humerus action is important. The WRONG sequence kills the swing.

The back scap resists and clamps on the the torso cusp it is helping to form, then it stays clamped/ALONG for the ride. The front scap stays pinched as well although it can be further pinched on approach to contact to hook handpath for very inside location.

As BUILDER has tried to explain to the likes of GUP over and over and over, it is the shoulders that are along for the ride (second engine/bypass), not the hands (PCR).

First BM went along with the Nyman/Englishbey scaps rapidly load and unload description to help him add a little torque late.

Then he got on the arm action is king/humerus action important for loading, but then mistakenly applied that to the GO move, slamming the elbow to the slot to force a 2 piece swing and late batspeed.

Then rather than admit the error and revise, the fog starts to cover the error:

This is how Englishbey described the Scap load looking at clips of Abreu in the HR derby a few years back:

http://www.eteamz.com/baseball/board...cfm?id=1346608

----------------
Englishbey to Tom and Donny:

"It's not about generating longer distance to apply force to the bat.
"What it IS about is stiffening the muscles so that you can have an instaneous transfer from loading to unloading., ie , no "slop".What much of scapula loading is about is generating the "cusp".The cusp is an instantaneous change in direction.
"Acusp is NOT: loading ....wait....unloading.A cusp is bang bang;load-unload.

In the first above clip ,right as the ball passes Abreu,you can see the back scapula quickly load--and will quickly unload an instant later. [what he does with his hands/ arms/shoulders up to that point is simply a function of his rhythm and tempo---which is simply the manner that he loads the entire body to create momentum of the body and barrel to quickly "turn into the ball".

And it helps in watching in these slo-mo clips to realize that this entire load -unload process takes less that ONE SECOND [starting from first movement of the body].

The above quote from Paul Nyman is just a small part of what he has written about with regards to "scapula loading -unloading".

And is entirely consistent with what he has said for at least 5 years about the critical role of the shoulder complex in terms of the transfer of momentum from the body to the barrel ,and in terms of creating greater efficiency of the swing path.

"Scapula loading -unloading, funtionally speaking ,is what high-level hitters do to quickly [and accurately in terms of the direction of the force and movement]"get the barrel into the momentum path developed by the body.

The form ,ie, the visible movement of the arms ,hands, shoulders and the magnitude and rate etc, engaged in this process of loading -unloading the shoulders will ,of course vary.

The function ----transferring momentum and creating the "cusp" will not .

What Abreu is doing ---from a functional perspective ----is not doing anything any differently than any other high-level hitter.

He is loading and unloading his shoulders so as to transfer momentum through the shoulder complex so as to quickly get the barrel into the momentum path developed by the body ...

----------------

[tom.guerry]

Besides not recognizing their is such a thing as early batspeed and getting scap action and arm action wrong, another thing the PCR-Fever crowd will eventually have to fog up is abandoning the idea that the MLB patern is an upper and lower body/synch/blend/top down control of botton up action very similar to overhand throw.

Nyman has stated he started out with this assumption for the swing becasue it worked for learning the throw, but then he abandoned it for whast he discovered based on his learning to swing with the proficiency of a 12 year old as his starting point.

here englishbey agrees with his guru:

http://www.baseball-fever.com/showpo...&postcount=238

For clarity's sake here ,from my perspective ----and this IS the perspective of many trainers ,physiotherapist, sports biomechanists ,and would include also Jim Dixon and Paul Nyman I think it is safe to say ] -----I do NOT "see" or conceptualize the body as a bifurcated "upper half /lower half."

[Teacherman]

Who is that JoeBad idiot?

Question.

How can you load/unload the scaps to launch....AND....turn the barrel efficiently?

Answer.

You can't.

The scap has to clamp down....and stay there until the swing is over.

[tom.guerry]

or future reference/revision testing, Richard knows what SteviE teaches. so does GEM:

http://www.baseball-fever.com/showpo...&postcount=121