What Does Separation Look Like?

[Teacherman]

What do all of these guys do the same regarding their separation?

What is the lead legs role in separation?
Does the location of the lead leg/hip define separation?
What actually separates?
Where is the movement that creates separation?
How open does one have to be to be separated?
How many video frames of 'opening' before hand movement, does it take to be separated?
When does it start?

[Tobell]

What do all of these guys do the same regarding their separation?

What is the lead legs role in separation?
Does the location of the lead leg/hip define separation?
What actually separates?
Where is the movement that creates separation?
How open does one have to be to be separated?
How many video frames of 'opening' before hand movement, does it take to be separated?
When does it start?

When does it start?

Two main phases SEPARATION then WHIP. SEPARATION occurs during the read\load phase..(it is the stretch that takes place between the two pivot points). WHIP occurs immediately--reflexively--after "Go". "Whip" is the recovery of separation. "GO" occurs when the rear hip opens.

What is the lead legs role in separation?
Until "Go" the role of lead leg is to give backside-- including the two pivot points --something to work against, it provides resistance..it also helps in timing.

Does the location of the lead leg/hip define separation?
No. The location of the back hip with respect to the hands..or more simply stated the separation between the pivot points...hands/hips is what defines separation. The stretch between the backside hip to the hands...before "go"

What actually separates?
The pivot point in the hands...and the pivot point atop the femur of the rear leg..so hands/rear hip.

Where is the movement that creates separation?
The prescribed hand action that makes the barrel arc rearward...this creates the backward stretch while the back hip is going toward the pitch...this stretch is occurring during the load\read phase of the swing.

How open does one have to be to separated?
During load one is closed. At "GO" when trying to create "Whip" the rear hip will be working toward the pitch, therefore it will start to open...however this is the recovery of separation..not the creation of separation.

How many video frames of 'opening' before hand movement, does it take to be separated? I'm assuming you mean "WHIP" not separation, and it only takes 1 frame max after the rear hip opens before the hands "Whip"

When does it start?
It starts the instant the rear hip opens. Why..well that explanation would get long and techy and involve physics so I'll skip it.

Does it get any better than Manny?
No.

[imagine44]

What actually separates?

I think it's the muscles of the back. The stretch though the back puts you on the people mover when you laterally tilt and the hips are in front IMO.

[Pronk]

To me I am looking at the rear knee starting in before the hands really get busy. If the rear knee is turning in, the rear hip pivot started. Even if it's one frame I want to see it start before the hands really get going.

I also see and feel each of these guys hitting over top of the rear knee (upper thigh).

Another thing from a feel perspective is if I feel myself turning from a loaded back hip with the hands resisting, my front shoulder wants to rise. I don't feel the need to force a lateral tilt.

[Slapper23]

Interesting article I ran across about separation/"X-factor." Food for thought....

http://blog.swingtraining.net/2006/0...-x-factor.aspx

Mike

[tom.guerry]

Mike-

That article is from Jeff Albert who follows Nyman too closely in my opinion, trying to make Nyman's point that xfactor should be minimized. Nyman has the CRAZY idea that the separation is best created by a little upper/lower body "offset" in the stance then you turn like heck with as little additionla stretch as possible.
Only someone with the HUGE Nyman advantage of approaching the swing with the "proficiency of a typical 12 year old" could seriously try to apply science in this manner.

I DO like the comparsion at the end, but the problem with Francouer being too open is, in my opinion, lack of upper engine resistance which Nyman and company will not acknowledge and or can not see.

[powertoallfields]

Mike-

That article is from Jeff Albert who follows Nyman too closely in my opinion, trying to make Nyman's point that xfactor should be minimized. Nyman has the CRAZY idea that the separation is best created by a little upper/lower body "offset" in the stance then you turn like heck with as little additionla stretch as possible.
Only someone with the HUGE Nyman advantage of approaching the swing with the "proficiency of a typical 12 year old" could seriously try to apply science in this manner.

I DO like the comparsion at the end, but the problem with Francouer being too open is, in my opinion, lack of upper engine resistance which Nyman and company will not acknowledge and or can not see.

Tom,

I agree! If you look at the front view of Manny and Jeff, you will see much more of the number on the back of Manny's uniform and his front shoulder is loaded a little more down and in. In essence, their stretch created is very much the same, so the main difference in frame count from go to contact is the direction and distance that the sweetspot has to move in Francouer's swing.

[Teacherman]

Most people look at the hip line in relation to the shoulder line.....or the openness of the hips.....to determine the degree of separation.

IMO, that description doesn't reconcile the hitters in the first post of this thread.

What would reconcile their different looks? They all separate. Where is it the same in all the hitters?

[LRS]

For Me , its ALL about the LAST (dynamic second phase) portion of separation.....X-Factor can be descriptive of early,late,or total separation........But when followed by the STRETCH word , think/feel , x-factor stretch.........LRS

[HiddenGem]

For Me , its ALL about the LAST (dynamic second phase) portion of separation.....X-Factor can be descriptive of early,late,or total separation........But when followed by the STRETCH word , think/feel , x-factor stretch.........LRS

I agree..I had the chance to watch Pujols live today...the thing that is most important about his swing is the last bit of sudden stretch he gets,that turns into some incredible powerful whip into the ball. It was awesome to say the least.

[Bucketdad]

Are you ever going to

Most people look at the hip line in relation to the shoulder line.....or the openness of the hips.....to determine the degree of separation.

IMO, that description doesn't reconcile the hitters in the first post of this thread.

What would reconcile their different looks? They all separate. Where is it the same in all the hitters?

Is this a rhetorical thread, or are we going to finish it.
What are you eluding to Teach?
Does it have to do with max. separation happening at the point in these swings to the stride foot planting/toe touching?
I seeing max. separation occurring before the stride foot touches the ground or there abouts.
Am I on the right path or am I totally absorbed in trying to solve my problem with my DD inability to perform a timely separation movement in her swing? It seems that's all I am looking for recently when I look at hitting clips.

[Teacherman]

Thanks for showing interest. Because this is of 'holy grail' significance, IMO.

The separation that 'looks' and 'feels'....similar.....almost exact.....in all high level hitters is the relationship between the rear knee and hands.....and how the rear knee and hands use the 'sit'....the control of the rear leg....as a platform to move against in opposite directions.

Most look at the hip line versus the shoulder line......the degree of openness of the hips. But the hitters in this thread do not look similar in that regard. But all of them turn the rear knee down and in against the loading of the hands/barrel.

[Teacherman]

I will make a very simple video clip tonight showing just what a little sit allows to happen naturally.

It is quite interesting, IMO.

[Pronk]

Thanks for showing interest. Because this is of 'holy grail' significance, IMO.

The separation that 'looks' and 'feels'....similar.....almost exact.....in all high level hitters is the relationship between the rear knee and hands.....and how the rear knee and hands use the 'sit'....the control of the rear leg....as a platform to move against in opposite directions.

Most look at the hip line versus the shoulder line......the degree of openness of the hips. But the hitters in this thread do not look similar in that regard. But all of them turn the rear knee down and in against the loading of the hands/barrel.

AHA. I was staring at the rear knee too.

[Tobell]

Class will be in session tonight

Teacherman,

Looking forward to your post on this tonight. I was pointing to the rear hip..but the rear knee largely controls the rear hip, and the knee further down the kinetic chain so would be an even better point of study. I like where this is going...thanks for your keen observation.